I don’t discriminate, but ….

I also think that people should have a time period after coming here (five years?) after which they have to show that they can speak English and maybe take a citizenship test of some sort.

Yes. Even if the citizenship test was something they could revise and repeat parrot fashion it would mean they were aware of what was required e.g. the rules on these leaflets.

People are happy to be seen supporting Ms. Thunburg at a concert featuring a group who had a screen up declaring "fu*k Israel", though.
Not sure how that pans out, and apologies if I've not spelled her name right.

Oreo

But it’s what some have tried for, hoping for leniency.

Maybe, but it won't wash, which is my point.

Suggesting that telling people about laws will stop them breaking them would be considered ludicrous in other contexts. Immigrants aren't going to get away with rape or assault by pretending they think they are permissible.

I do agree that everyone should be taught about laws, rights and the political system though. It is frightening how few people seem to understand basic concepts, whether they are immigrants or not.

I also think that people should have a time period after coming here (five years?) after which they have to show that they can speak English and maybe take a citizenship test of some sort. Not because I think they will get away with crime if they don't, but because it might help to make a more cohesive society. It would be good if more British people did the same, although I don't suppose that could be made in any way compulsory.

Just to be clear, I was not getting at Cossy or what she said. I was actually thinking of a particular person I know who is always talking about out doing the right thing etc and always quick to pick up peoples’ faults and thinks she is perfect.

Cossy

I’ve perused this info and frankly it’s a pity it’s not given to ALL men living in this country!

I might be saying this a little tongue in cheek, but if you read through it all, it’s not a bad thing for all men (& some women) to live by!

It should be given out in schools to all pupils maybe.

MT62

Yes I certainly agree with that. I just think we have enough problems in this country with cost of living, Poor MH, cut backs in MH, homelessness, drugs, etc.

Cossy

Yes I certainly agree with that. I just think we have enough problems in this country with cost of living, Poor MH, cut backs in MH, homelessness, drugs, etc.

Oreo

I’m glad the government is handing out these booklets to all migrants arriving here, then they can’t say they didn’t know our laws when they offend with girls and women.

True Oreo!

If they’re British Wyllow3 then they wouldn’t even need to try the didn’t know stuff would they?

Thank you cossy for your heartfelt O/P.

Hmmmm, how about handing these leaflets out to our many homegrown domestic abusers of women and children, hey? Or even mentioning its extremely needful? Or those abusing in religious or other institutional situations

"I've got a little list"....(ref G and S)

Then they can't pretend they can’t say they didn’t know our laws when they offend with girls and women"

And it may genuinely surprise some migrants that women on their own aren’t considered fair game.

But it’s what some have tried for, hoping for leniency.

They can say what they like - ignorance of the law is not a defence.

I’m glad the government is handing out these booklets to all migrants arriving here, then they can’t say they didn’t know our laws when they offend with girls and women.

LemonJam

Doodledog

There is a difference between saying 'I'm not racist, but I don't want people with brown skin living next door' and 'I'm not transphobic but I don't want men in women's spaces'.

The former is a clear contradiction - only a racist would care about their neighbour's skin colour. The latter means that the speaker is not afraid of transpeople or wants to discriminate against them, but is afraid of (or otherwise objects to) men using women's changing rooms or whatever - transgender or not. Those things are perfectly compatible.

Exactly- I agree Doodledog.

Just checking - my post assumes that 'men' refers to biological males, however they identify. Do you still agree?

LemonJam

Nothing wrong with the leaflet- consent is something to also promote and emphasise in uk make population to cut down on misogyny and crimes against women.

I agree

MartavTaurus

A good post and an interesting one.

However, from my days of linguistics, I remember learning that the words that come after but and although carry more emphasis by virtue of their position in the sentence. I can't remember what it was called used this way, a something or other conjunctive, and its function is to make the latter statement the stronger and more remembered by the listener, who then sees it as a contradiction of the first statement, when it might not be.

A bit of a jumble here, I know, but just to say I would cut people some slack by second guessing the manner in which they express themselves.

The rest of the post is sound.

Yes, that’s what I think too.After all if you say something like ‘I used to like cats but after looking after one for a while I was badly scratched and now detest them…
Or ‘I’m not a meat hater but after seeing a slaughterhouse now I really am’.
I don’t believe that everyone is a racist who uses a ‘but’.
As MvT says, the rest of the post is sound.

Nothing wrong with the leaflet- consent is something to also promote and emphasise in uk make population to cut down on misogyny and crimes against women.

I’ve perused this info and frankly it’s a pity it’s not given to ALL men living in this country!

I might be saying this a little tongue in cheek, but if you read through it all, it’s not a bad thing for all men (& some women) to live by!

I’m assuming this is what is being referred to?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/understanding-behaviours-and-expectations-in-the-uk-a-guide-for-asylum-seekers

MT62

Not all will be bad people, but if the government feels the need to hand out pamphlets to these people, on how it is wrong to have sex with underage people- clearly I find it a little disturbing to say the least.
In some cultures it is ok to marry girls as young as 10 years old, ((maybe they do need these pamphlets)
Clearly they will think it’s ok to do this in this country, (go with youngsters) & to Pester young females (I’ve seen it in Manchester).
It has nothing to do with skin colour.

I don’t really have an answer for you here, it is a concern.

However, please believe me when I say that there are plenty of our own home grown Brits who have sex with under age girls and yes, it’s wrong.

Not all will be bad people, but if the government feels the need to hand out pamphlets to these people, on how it is wrong to have sex with underage people- clearly I find it a little disturbing to say the least.
In some cultures it is ok to marry girls as young as 10 years old, ((maybe they do need these pamphlets)
Clearly they will think it’s ok to do this in this country, (go with youngsters) & to Pester young females (I’ve seen it in Manchester).
It has nothing to do with skin colour.

Fallingstar

Rough sleepers usually self medicate with drugs or drink because most have mental health problems and have fallen through enormous cracks in our care system. For the past few decades huge cuts have been made to care for adults with mental health problems but have saved no money because rough sleepers often take up beds in the NHS or end up in our prisons, all of which costs money.
Caring for theses adults will free up goodness knows how many places in our prisons, because many inmates are mentally ill, so instead of early releases I think it would be wise to address this.

👏👏👏👏👏

Galaxy

As a person who has had relationships with women the worst homophobia I have seen is from those justifying men in women's spaces.

There is no justification. IMHO, no one’s “rights” should override others safety.

Of course, those who actually do cause the majority of women’s safety issues are men who pretend to be transgender.

My daughters both feel the same about heterosexuals “infiltrating” (their words, not mine) lesbian gay clubs because it makes them feel unsafe.

LemonJam

Mollygo 16.54- I thought I was clear in my earlier post but I'll have another go- just for you 😊. If this post setting out my understanding of the law is still not sufficiently clear for you, I invite you to provide your own preferred form of words that would be clearer- I would read with interest not be offended.

My understanding is that the UK law has now determined sex is immutable and defines womanhood and protects gender critical views as a philosophical belief under equality legislation. There have also been landmark rulings on protecting safe spaces for women.

At the same time the law prohibits homophobic and transphobic discrimination and harassment.

So sex is immutable and defines womanhood. However at the same time transgender people have the right to identify their preferred gender and are also protected by law from discrimination and harassment and must be treated equally.

A transgender woman identifies as female, has a legal right to do so and can obtain a legal Gender Recognition Certificate. They can also update their names and gender markers on passports, driving licences and medical records also without a GRC.

The landmark court rulings established sex based legal definition under equality legislation refers to biological sex. So for example service providers and employers etc can lawfully treat 'woman' as biological sex for single sex exemptions, and woman only spaces.

At the same time, transgender individuals retain separate legal protections against direct or indirect discrimination, harassment and victimisation under the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment".

I don't "allude' to the law as you suggest, I set out my understanding of it.

You ask *Do you feel that the transgender women’s rights you allude to should impact detrimentally on the rights of women?
NB I’m not demanding that you answer, as that’s likely to get a report, just asking for clarification of your statements, which you are equally not obliged to give*

My statements are my understanding of the law. The law is the law - so not for me to say whether the law should detrimentally impact on the rights of women or on the rights of transgender women. Both have legal protections.

In an ideal world men, women of all nationalities and transgender women and transgender men can live alongside each other, all with dignity and respect and not be harassed, victimised or discriminated against.

Spot on! 👍👏👏👏