What do we want from our NHS and how should we pay for it.

I think the NHA and UKIP between them are going to provide quite an upset in this coming election. Our local GPs are fielding an NHA candidate and are strongly against privatization and TTIP being allowed to have any influence over the NHS.

Whoopee!

Here's some other good news, but not for Cameron and Hunt.

nhap.org/voters-odds-nhs-cameron-hunt-constituencies/

Clive Peedell is standing against Cameron, and Louise Irving against Hunt.

Ana These extracts from the 38 Degrees website strongly suggest that petitions and campaigns are influential:

• In July, 38 Degrees members swarmed on Downing Street and stopped Syngenta’s attempt to lift an EU-wide ban on bee-killing pesticides.

• In August, together we took on retail giant Matalan with a huge petition, emails and calls to its managers ...... Eventually Matalan coughed up £60,000 for the compensation fund of the victims of the Rana Plaza factory collapse in Bangladesh.

• In November, in just 24 hours a whopping 150,000 of us signed a petition calling the government not to sell off our forests. We helped organisations like Save our Woods push the government to enshrine protection of our forests in law.

•Chris and the Dorset Hospital Campaign saved their local hospital lab from privatisation

• a partnership campaign with Women’s Aid pushed the government to commit £10m to keep women’s refuges open.

Of course, there is no guarantee that some of these issues will not be resurrected again once the limelight is off them, so there is no room for complacency.

I'm very surprised that such a large, powerful organisation would be swayed by an online petition.

Lockheed Martin have pulled out of negotiations over the NHS, thanks to a petition by Sumofus. It works.

This is a very interesting thread and I realise I have doubled up on it by starting a discussion called Disappearance of the NHS. Sorry about that. I posted in that thread just now a report from today's Guardian setting out what private companies have gained from NHS England over the last financial year. Here it is again.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/27/nhs-england-millions-pounds-private-companies

It's not how I feel NHS money should be being spent. I agree it's better to try and not get too political because then discussions can get quite heated but there are some really big questions here for us as a society. It's all got so complicated. I'm finding that most people have no idea what is going on and usually it's those who are ill who are the ones who know, which is a bit sad to say the least.

Could be some indicators here, Dj, of preparations and consequences:

www.forbes.com/sites/davechase/2012/02/09/healthcare-ceos-guide-to-avoiding-newspaper-industry-mistakes/

I would like to know, papaoscar, what links newspaper proprietors have with healthcare companies. I wonder if there is any way to find out. Few newspapers have written as much about the NHs privatisation as the Guardian, yet it has been in the public domain.

Thank goodness the fires of protest about the NHS have been lit and are illuminating some of the darker corners of this governments dodgy conduct towards it. Long may they burn and expose the danger the NHS faces in the hands of the Cameron/Clegg conspirators and their privatisation plans.

nhap.org/our-policies/national-health-action-party-policy-framework/section-3-economy

Policy on the economy of the NHA, kitty. They have policies for everything, just like other parties. Do you always just go on a name? If that were true, the Conservatives should not have semi-privatised the NHS. They should have left it as it was, instead of calling it a 60 year mistake.

Just because they want to stop the NHS from being privatised does not mean that's all they think about.

I have just been listening to Radio 4's File on Four on the subject of Continuing Health Care Funding, which is the process by which the NHS is obliged in law to pay the care costs of those in the community (their own homes or residential/nursing homes) with primary health care needs.

It is a system I got to know very well when my father was in need of care - and I did get his care costs paid by the NHS in fact.

But I do question what this is all about - it pits health against social services as they both fight not to pick up the bill. Huge amounts of money are wasted in these assessments/appeals/reviews/training/legal costs as they slog it out. Both systems are short of cash and their attempts to avoid paying could be seen as proper budgetary management. But it is perfectly ridiculous that this situation should have arisen. The whole system needs overhauling.

The reason that patients fight to get the CHC funding is because it cannot by law be means tested (any more than any other aspect of the NHS can) whereas care via the SSD is means-tested and patients usually have to make a contribution.

It is a hugely costly system for the NHS. Is this what we expect them to be spending our money on? - or do we feel that direct medical treatment should be the limit of their remit? Should the law in this area be re-assessed?

Well summarised Whitewave.

I think no-one mentioned an aging population because older people are one of the reasons the NHS exists? Surely, it is to look after the vulnerable particularly, that is why prescriptions, dentistry, eye tests etc are free to certain categories.

So, should there be more charges for those that can pay either at the point of use or in taxes? The NHS can't be all things to all people in a time of such huge advances and, it has to be said, the huge challenges that it faces today. Think of the huge drain on the NHS if ebola was to appear here. We have bed blocking, patient eviction notices, ambulances queueing to discharge patients, cancelled ops and so on already.

Successive governments have made a mess of things but I would be loath to vote for a party that bases itself of supporting the NHS.

nhap.org/its-here-our-policy-framework/

I thought you lived on the Isle of Man. Do you have a vote? Isn't your parliament different? Or am I getting you mixed up with someone else?

Anyway, you can still read the NHA policy framework and see what you think. Does it fit in with your summary?

Just been reading the posts and quite impressed with the nuanced and sophisticated contributions you have been making. Much more knowledge out there than I could contribute.

So far folks and you will correct me if I am wrong;-

Everyone seems to agree that there are enormous pressures being put on the NHS for a very wide variety of reasons but at the same time recognizing that it is a world leader.

Looking at a some of the pressures they include
constant restructuring, costing time and money.
Mismanagement in employment and redundancy policies
Much comment about top-heavy management although you recognised the need for some management.
The constant development of new technology and the resultant cost
I was interested to note that no-one suggested that an aging population might be an added pressure! (who us?)

Some GN's were concerned at the pressures and employment conditions being endured by the staff, and felt that this lead to a demoralized and depressed staff.

Looking at what you wanted they could be summarised;-

We should all be responsible for our own health, by living a healthy lifestyle and as far as possible, when having to use the health system being informed so as to be able to be actively involved in decisions in relation to our treatment.

A consistent level of provision throughout the UK, with an overall National form of management. No-one was keen on the postcode lottery. From reading some of the posts this was as a result of lack of National management which leads to inconsistency of provision. Individual contracts with GP's and dentists allow the individual provider to make decisions that may lead to lack of particular skills e.g physio.

Some were reasonably happy for the NHS to contract out some of the provision, but most seem worried that this would lead to fragmentation, and a costly tendering process.

A couple of GN's said that there should be no use of NHS facilities by private health care
There was a suggestion that any major restructuring should be banned for a number of years
Tzar was also talked about but the opinion is a bit mixed on that largely it seems because of a tzar appointed by the current government not appearing to be at all effective.
There should be national terms and conditions for the staff

How we pay for it ;-

There seems to be no appetite for any form of American Insurance system. So no to privatization of the NHS. Indeed GN's are on the whole extremely suspicious of government of any colour, and their apparent desire to introduce private contracts etc.

Some suggested a payment by use/visit but others thought that this would be too costly, although a charge is made for some provision e.g dentistry, optician etc.

Most seemed to recognize that there may be a need to pay more, but no-one really explored that area.
I am sure that I have missed stuff but hopefully have given a reasonable summary.

Good isn't it!!?? I have enjoyed this, thanks to everyone who has helped me understand a bit more. Now who to vote for!!??

Apart from all the sharp practice by politicians and private health providers, I think one of the biggest problems the NHS has had to cope with since it started is the medical profession and its controlling bodies, many of whom seem to exist only to feather their own nests. Unless the back of that can be well and truly broken nothing much will change. As regards the layers of quasi- and non-medical management imposed on the NHS over the years, I'd sack the lot of 'em without compensation and start again with decent and competent people in charge who have the true interests of the NHS at heart. No snake-oil purveyor of private medical nonsense would cross my threshold!

Rotten teeth can cause major health problems and dentists can also spot some symptoms of serious underlying illnesses, ditto ophthalmologists.

I think the practice of "big pay offs and then being re-employed" is rife throughout the public sector as a whole janeainsworth

A recent example is Sunderland chief Karen Straughair and her husband Chris Reed (North Tyneside) receiving over a £million pounds in payoffs and were then both re-employed (by the NHS of course) earning £50,000 and £70,000 each for 4 months work. Not forgetting their handsome pension entitlements too of course.

It stinks.

Near the beginning of this thread, I asked whether people were only talking about medicine or other parts of the NHS too.

Does anyone think it would be good to jettison other parts eg dentistry, optics etc etc to save the NHS?

Not sure David would be up for it now, though. He seems to have found his niche elsewhere...

You never know, Ana, the much put-upon British public are capable of awesome power if you push them hard enough, as Messrs Churchill, Thatcher and Brown found out, much to their surprise.

Or wishful thinking!

Divine inspiration, perhaps, Ana!

Agree completely, papa. I do hope that Miliband comes out from behind his focus groups who are doing him no good.
If he puts the NHS at the top of his list, I might even vote Labour again, which I haven't done since Blair came into power. I like geeks.
Slightly ingenuous of me because I have lived in Labour constituencies since moving back up North from Hampshire in 1987. However my husband and sons always voted Labour, which cancelled out my vote anyway.
If he does not, I will vote Green or NHA, whichever is available, to stop the NHS from privatisation, I hope, and save it from the TTIP.
Sorry, the rest of you, but it is impossible to keep politics out of the NHS, as it is the coalition who want to destroy it and hand it over to their privatising cronies.

Freudian slip, papaoscar?