The disappearance of the NHS

Papaoscar, do you know this website?

www.weownit.org.uk

Lots of stuff to sign and read about public ownership. There is a public ownership bill going through parliament at the moment, unless the Tories have voted it out again.

Ana I don't believe there are any PFIs in Wales either to drain the money!

At least the Labour administration is now allowing some Welsh patients to go to English hospitals for treatment because waiting lists are so much shorter in England in a number of medical areas.
Does that speak for itself?

Eloethan I don't think I said that the financial difficulties were all of Labour's making. I said it was the bankers and then Labour jumping on the giddy bandwagon because it suited them to let us think how well off we were. Many people seemed to be living in a state of financial euphoria - although some of us thought - no, knew - it would all end in tears.
POGS is right re Labour's handling of the economy.

Try asking the Welsh how well Labour has run their NHS service, durhamjen. If that's an indication of their competence, heaven help us!

So which ones were conservative and not toxic?
I think the only PFI that has been bought back is Hexham Hospital, in a Tory constituency, but by a labour council.

There is no faith by you for labour to run the economy POGS. Some others may disagree.

PFI was introduced by the conservatives under John Major. They were at first challenged as bad policy but proved to be workable in the end and fairly successful.

The Labour Party continued with PFI deals but the outlandish contracts Labour drew up have proved to be toxic. We all know about the stories re changing light bulbs etc.

It was Labours prolific spending and lack of economical competency that has created the mess with PFI and we all now know how much debt they racked up. When the World Economy took a nose dive it proved to be the UK's downfall hence there is no faith in Labour to run the economy or much else.

Soontobe, I'm right there with you. The Green Party are largely taking a sensible approach and have some good policies though no one thinks they are affordable apart from the Greens. I think Caroline Lucas is an honest and intelligent politician but I can't believe they will gather enough support. I'm dreading the election.

eloethan they all blame each other don't they. I don't feel you can trust any of them anymore. Maybe a multi party parliament would actually force some compromises before it's too late.

I cannot believe we'll leave the EU, please no. But that's another debate!

area

Perhaps it depended on which are you lived in, absent. My dentist extracted my four back teeth and said my remaining teeth would 'spread out' to compensate...

Needless to say, they didn't.

On the dentistry front, I sometimes think I'd like to sue the dentistry profession (if I was that sort of person) for having filled my mouth and the mouths of other with so much Mercury and amalgam. I think my children have had a filling each and the dentist told me its to do with changing fashions and techniques of dentistry. Certainly my lot ate a lot of sweets I am a little ashamed to admit.

I quite agree annie. My trust in politicains has gone. And I dont know how to get it back again.

The announcement of 2billion. Sounds great. But is it "new" money? Where is the additional money coming from? Could it or should it have been given out before? Will it all go to the frontline?[course not]
Why now[silly question, because there is an election coming]
Am I cynical of all parties? Yes I am.
Did I used to be? No.

Feel like not voting. But that isnt an answer either.

rosequartz Schools and hospitals were falling apart. PFI was a bad move but it's not something the Conservatives criticised at the time because it is in line with their policy of shrinking the state and privatising public service provision.

As for people maxing out their credit cards, this is still happening. Banks are pulling in customers with "0% interest for 3 years" credit deals, and several commentators on the economy are sounding alarm bells. It seems that banks have learned nothing from the "toxic debt" crisis that precipitated what was almost a "meltdown" of the world economy - because they are doing the same thing again.

What you say about Blair rosequartz just confirms what I said - that Blair was at heart a Conservative and adopted their policies - he's certainly no socialist.

Now that it has become apparent that the deficit has not decreased to anywhere near the level that Osborne had said it would, he is blaming the downturn in Europe. And yet, when the whole of Europe and the USA were hit by the massive financial crisis in 2008/9 - with most of their economies left in tatters - the Conservatives said our financial difficulties were entirely of Labour's making. You may believe that, I don't.

There was preventive dentistry around when I was a child in the 1950s. I have never forgotten how much I hated wearing braces and I was not the only one in my state primary school.

I remember being so excited when Blair was elected. It wasn't all bad but by the end they just seemed like slightly less blue Tories as they do now. To me the current political spectrum is SO depressing.

Oh, thanks!

No, great big metal fillings (all those gobstoppers and kali)

No need to say sorry, I just wanted to make it clear I was saying 'well said' about your previous post, that's all! (also with mouth closed - I don't think preventative dentistry was around in our youth!)

Sorry! They are all my own (nearly) but too many sweeties after they came off rationing took their toll. with mouth closed

Well said, rosequartz. (Not about the dentistry!)

Thanks rosequartz for that link, ho, ho.
annie That is me, too many gobstoppers, too many fillings, looked after what is left but quite scared of the dentist for some reason.

Blair was stupid entering into the PFI deals
I thought it was more Gordon Brown's baby than Blair's and imo Brown was more of a true Labour politician than Blair ever was.

Under Brown's Chancellorship Britain got into so much personal and national debt, but it was designed to make us all feel much better and more wealthy. As long as we felt happy and well off we would vote Labour again - but it all went wrong. Even DH and I (a pair of financial novices but cautious) could see what was going to happen - and kept looking at one another and saying 'this is all going to end in tears'!

Lots of lovely hospitals, schools, prisons - all on credit
People maxing their credit cards because 'I want it, and I want it now!'

At some time the debt has to be paid - with interest.

All of this seemed to be ethos of Labour's 13 year adminstration to make us all feel that everything was wonderful. The bankers were to blame in part, but the government jumped onto the reckless, giddy bandwagon too.
To quote a Conservative politician of years ago: 'You've never had it so good'. I think Labour took that as their mantra.

Debt has to be paid at some point, services still have to be provided and the problem is how to do that - pay the debt and still provide the services.

Whenever Ed Balls appears on tv, I cannot take a word he says seriously.

It is very amusing that people are saying that the previous administration was more like the Conservatives! Whatever the problem, whatever the party which caused it, let's shift the blame - if it was Labour who caused it, let's say that they were too much like the Conservatives!!

If that wasn't so sad it would be hilarious - although I will say that Blair has become one of the biggest capitalists and self-centred beings on this planet since he left politics.

Well remembered, Eleothan, the damage inflicted on our national infrastructure by Thatcher et al, increased (understandably) during the Blair years, is all around us, and while we don't want to concentrate on the past, many of the instigators of those disasters linger on in the form of Thatcher and Blair's inheritors. PFI was a quick fix with a long-lasting debt legacy and there is a better way. Its called public ownership and to implement it needs old-fashioned, honest, radical politicians with integrity and the interests of the whole community at heart. I just don't think many in the modern-day political stable measure up. Most are only fit for the knacker's yard.

Thanks rosequartz for that link, ho, ho.
I'm sorry I've been out today, there have been some interesting posts. If only we were in charge! Lifting PFI debts is such an obvious route. I also don't trust this current government and fear that the £2bn is just going to disappear into the pockets of private consultants (not medical ones) and contractors. The NHS was never set up to have to deal with all the administration around tendering and contracting as we all say.

Whilst I'm not against small charges being made for say, GP appointments, privatisation is just going to bring us a hugely expensive and bureaucratic healthcare system where the well off will be fine and many, many people will suffer chronic illness and premature death.

It's easy to say people should take care of their own and their family's health until there is an accident or you become ill as a result of the environmental conditions we live and work in. Air pollution from vehicles and emissions from planes, chemicals in our homes and factories, in food stuffs and in our water, illness that arises from workplace stress or some allergen. None of us knows what life may bring and a sane society tries to look after everybody for the benefit of everybody.

Politicians have been using the N H S as a vehicle to get themselves elected for years It needs to be privatised,people only respect what they have to pay for so would there be a waiting list for gastric bands if the procedure cost £500 or so,I dont think so.£5 would buy you 10 cigaretts, If gps charged the same their surgeries would be empty and competition would take over with gps reducing their charge.
People need to take responsibility for their own and familys health and well being.

It seems a good idea to use fines from bankers to help fund the NHS - however, knowing those wily bankers who will be paying? Not them, that's for sure, it will be the customer (us).

lilygran Yes, paying off the PFI debts would save a huge amount of money and would make a lot more sense than all these other initiatives.

Blair was stupid entering into the PFI deals but I believe his record demonstrates he has more in common with the Conservative party than with traditional Labour. He and his "New Labour" people (many of whom are unfortunately still around) were trying to match the Conservative party in being especially accommodating to big business and the finance sector (which the Conservatives had always criticised them for not doing).

Whilst I agree that it was a disastrous decision by Labour to enter into these contracts, if you can remember back to before Labour got in and the Conservatives were in power, hospitals and schools had been allowed to fall into terrible disrepair and were not fit for purpose. The NHS was falling apart at the seams and there were almost daily news reports about people waiting ages for consultations and then sometimes years for surgery.