The scandal of stillbirths

*our

Yes assisted conception increases the rate as does the age of the mother, with women over 35 more likely to have a multiple.

I can't give you any global figures but I guess which country you live in will determine whether infertility treatment is readily available.

Another thing that's occurred to me is stillbirth reporting. Whilst are figures in the UK are high, I would expect our reporting to be better than in some countries.

Gosh! Is that because of fertility treatment, sadie? And if so, is the UK rate of twins and triplets, etc. also higher than in similar European countries?

Stansgran You make some interesting points, could I add the following.

The incidence of twins, triplets, quads and more has been steadily increasing in the UK and there are more stillbirths associated with these pregnancies. 1984 the total number of multiples was 7,353 and in 2012 it was 25,581.

Pogs, check out this Wikihow page that shows you how to copy and paste links.

My thoughts have run along a similar line, stansgran, wondering if the rate is higher where there is a higher rate of newish immigrants. My experience with the Vietnamese 'boat' woman that I spoke of earlier on this thread is one of the reasons this thought has crossed my mind, I'm sure.

pogs, I checked out the Sands charity website. That looks like a worthy endeavour. I also looked up the three MPs whose names you gave. Can't say I learned anything significant about this thread's subject matter from the Wiki articles about them. It would really help if you could do links. Are you able to highlight and copy a web page's URL (it stands for Universal Resource Locator but you don't need to know that; I didn't till I asked DH just now!)? It is the internet 'address', if you like, of the page you're on. Try going to the top of your page now and click on the bit where it says gransnet.com. It should expand to show the whole address of the page. That's the first step.

That's a good point Stansgran. Would be interesting to see breakdown of the figures.

Fewer people therefore less demand on services? Lower birth rates? Wealthier better education for young women? In recent years we have had a high influx of immigrant families. Many have been settled in Middlesbrough . Interesting to know if that has skewed the rate of still births- traumatised women with little healthcare or knowledge of antenatal care?

Do we know exactly what Iceland is doing that is not being done here?

Thatbags re your post 17.40 . Out of interest have you read/viewed the available material I have mentioned in past posts?, I am asking you personally as I hope I am correct in thinking you will not be offended by nor take my question as being sarcastic, you usually seem far to magnaminous a soul to find my question as such. (fingers crossed emoticon)

Look up following MP's

Chris Heaton - Harris
Tim Loughton
Tracy Crouch.

I have no desire to get into a spat with anyone but it appears that mention of the fact parliament and MP's are giving this matter attention is not being acknowledged and this particular subject is very dear to my heart.

I agree absolutely Jane about that one, but I was thinking of little Poppi

Anya If I'm thinking of the same midwifery scandal in Cumbria as you, it was more than sloppiness.
It was professional jealousy, with midwives refusing to refer to obstetricians when necessary and totally losing sight of the fact that like all HCWs, they should always act in the patient's best interests.
And that's nothing to do with politics.

No use lobbying my own MP - he's some useless Tory twerp.

I agree that the law would need to be changed re Rheinberg's suggestion and no, I don't know if anyone has. There's another scandal in Cumbria just at the moment so I expect that will take precedence.

X/posts bags

Does it need an act of Parliameng to buy and use a tape measure or a pair of weighing scales and a chart?

Seems to me the tape measure is made of red tape. We need to cut out all this b****y bureaucrscy and replace it with action.

'Existing legislation..considering policies and procedures b***ocks.

The thing is that it needs political will to make the necessary changes, anya. Rheinberg's idea, for instance, won't happen without a change in the law and that depends on parliament. Politics is key to improvements, though not Party politics. Any MP could raise this as a private member's bill presumably. Do you know if anyone has?

Why would you? I don't bring politics into every conversation, just where it's relevant.

I've just discovered these Smileys, they're good fun aren't they?

So is eating, sleeping, breathing, excreting, driving, shopping, sex showering, cleaning my teeth, watching TV, reading, singing.......but I don't bring them into every conversation with friends and family not into every blessed thread on GN !!!!!!!

You make some interesting points Anya and it would seem to me that Nicholas Rheinberg is on the right track about the law.

I accept what you say about your intentions for this thread, but perhaps others see Gransnet as similar to ordinary conversations, where people chip in and the conversation flows naturally. Personally, I don't think it's really up to anyone to dictate what can be posted. Surely as long as people are polite it's difficult to see a problem.

Politics are part of everyone lives and affect everything. When I was working we were very aware of how our jobs were directed from government policies. When I did my degree we did a module on social policy and nursing. Perhaps my background makes me more aware of the importance of existing legislation when considering policies and procedures within the NHS.

No, I haven't experienced a stillbirth, but others on this thread have and my heart goes out to them. I accept you didn't mean offence. I intended that this thread would look purely at the clinical side of this problem and how improvements could be made immediately with just a few tweaks.

While we wait for successive government to move, every day that passes more babies are lost unnecessarily.

How many people know, for instance, that there doesn't have to be an inquest on a stillborn child?

This from today's Times

"Hospitals are failing to bring down the high stillbirth rate because they are allowed to investigate themselves, according to the author of a report into the Morecombe Bay scandal.

Brian Kirkup called for an end to a 1950s law that prevents coroners from opening an inquest unless a baby has drawn a breath.

Dr Kirkup, whose report last year concludes that a "lethal mix" of denial and failure by the NHS led to the death of 11 babies and one mother at the trust in Cumbria, said that poor internal investigations were a key reason why Britain's stillbirth rate remained high.

Nicholas Rheinberg, the Cheshire coroner who has been active in investigating baby deaths, wants the law to force staff to report to coroners all deaths after the start of labour"

Personally I'd take it further and ask that all deaths of babies in the womb in the third trimester ought to be investigated. Sloppy midwifery, as happened in Cumbria is not acceptable, not when there is such good practice going on elsewhere.

Bags once I would have had the strength and tenacity to start an outcry. Sadly I've used up all my energy coping with our own family tragedy.

Yes I recognise that smoking is highly addictive and that people have stressful lives and poor education both of which contribute to them starting and continuing. And that those who sell tobacco have a lot to answer for.
if it was discovered now it would be considered dangerous and probably made illegal.

Anya Reading between the lines it would appear that you have experienced a stillbirth. My sympathies are with you and anyone else, if that is the case. As I posted earlier in the thread, my own sister had a stillbirth and my daughter in law lost three babies in miscarriage.

I haven't mentioned this but I'm a retired nurse and health visitor and I've supported a number of women after stillbirths. One lady I visited couldn't have any more children and I visited her every week for months. She was very depressed but did say afterwards that she couldn't have got through it all without me. I was a newly qualified health visitor at the time and I must admit I found her distress extremely upsetting and it's stayed with me.

Stillbirth has touched many of us in different ways and it's always tragic. Exploring what can be done about it interests me, and my experiences tell me that the political influences on care in this country are intrinsically part of the whole picture.

In my view any discussion about the NHS and care in this country cannot take place without considering government policy. Please do not take offence Anya, as none is intended.

If you want a public outcry, start one. Seriously. I'm not just being flippant.

Minibags started an outcry about her school exam system recently because she felt her school was being experimented on. Turned out a lot of other kids thought so too. Her 'outcry' got other pupils involved, who inturn got their parents involved, who in turn involved coucillors and MSPs.

The system has been changed to accommodate the kids demands. In short they wanted more opportunities to sit national exams. Don't want to hijack this thread so will stop there.

Sorry. That's wrong. That's the figure for deaths and serious unjuries.