Is the government trying to break the GP service?

Hmm! We used to send little children up chimneys. It really wasn't all so great in the olden days.

It's not rocket science to work out that a GP can see a number of patients in surgery in the time it takes to make a home visit or carry out a telephone consultation.

Well said, SueDoku!

paddyanne I am around your age, lived in a small village & our nearest GP Surgery was 7 miles away, only 2 GPs in Practice but we got home visit if necessary, in those days most people didn't have a phone, not every-one had a car & nearest Hospital 20 miles away.

I had a GP about 30/35 years ago who would complain about the amount of paperwork. 3 years ago my GP (aged 50) gave up being a GP in a Local Practice to become a Locum (he was also an Anaesthetist) so that he could "do what he was trained for, treating Patients".

I have also noted that there are now more part-time GPs predominantly women. There is a need for a good "out of hours" service - not 111 which s a total waste of time. I just wonder how GPs 60 years ago (ok population wasn't as big) managed, suppose it helped to have a wife at home, one who had usually been a nurse before starting a family to answer the phone.

Dr Sarah Woolaston MP is obviously furious about the PM's scapegoating of GPs.

www.independent.co.uk/news/gps-sarah-wollaston-theresa-may-demands-apology-nhs-crisis-gp-scapegoating-tory-backlash-a7527716.html

You have hit the nail on the head SueDoku, the role of the nurse has changed fundamentally. Things are so much more technically advanced now. I have long advocated for the return of the nursing assistant to undertake the essential tasks of feeding, bathing, reassuring etc. Time has not stood still since F. Nightingale.

Unfortunately Jeremy Hunt is withdrawing bursaries for those training to be nurses, so they will have to pay their fees and clock up student debts the same as everyone else. This is going to ease the nurse shortage isn't it. Not.
My DIL is a nurse and most jobs she has had have been so busy that she had no breaks in her shifts.
It's possible that delays in getting a GP appointment are causing some hospital admissions - bit of a chest infection turns into pneumonia etc. However they are, generally, working flat out I think.
Hunt is promising more GPs, but it is unclear from whence they will be conjured. Something like a third are due for retirement soon and this could more than swallow up any "extra" ones he's talking about.

Can I point out that a nurse's career can be cut short because s/he has failed to 'sit at the nurses desk filling in their paperwork'? One record not updated, one dose of medicine, tablet or IV drip not signed for, one set of obs not initialled - any of these can result in a nurse losing their PIN (their licence to practice). Because of previous incidents/rogue individuals, there is now - quite rightly - an emphasis on recording every treatment given, whether major or minor - and this takes time..!
When nurses (& yes there is one in my family) are working 13 hour shifts - quite often with no break, even to go to the toilet - under pressure like this, knowing that any minor oversight can result in the loss of their career, is it any wonder that 'caring' is pushed down the priority list? Please note that I'm NOT saying that this is right - just that something has gone dreadfully wrong when neglect of patients care (NOT abuse) won't result in the loss of a job - but failing to sign a form could...
Nurses now do many jobs that used to be the preserve of junior doctors - so yes, university education is required, as they deal with situations and perform tasks that would never have been expected of them 20 years ago. Healthcare assistants now fill the role that nurses used to - but no-one has been recruited to fill their role, so nurses are still expected - and expect - to get their hands dirty, empty bedpans, wash patients etc. There has been a fundamental shift in the role of nurses, but the public's knowledge of this is very limited - so they are still expected to deliver one-to-one personal care -- and they simply don't always have time to do this..!

Healthcare assistants are responsible for feeding patients. They don't need to be academic.

How would that work? Nurses pay for their own university fees?

I agree, training on the job for nurses, which used to be the case, should be brought back. As should Matrons. Wards used to be spotless now they are not. Nurses used to have plenty of time to feed or talk to patients, now they cannot. Money spent on university fees could fund more nurses. Practical training is worth its weight in gold imo.

I agree with you Mauriherb not that I am a nurse, but from experience of them when my poor old mother was dying in hospital. They just wanted to sit at the nurses desk filling in their paperwork and not come and change her and get their hands dirty. Then they would just plonk her meal or drink on the table and not help her to eat or drink. Total nightmare.
Just because they can write essays and assignments about nursing care doesn't mean they are capable of actually providing it. Some of the most caring people who would make fabulous nurses just aren't academic enough to be able to complete a degree. I just dread if any of my family or indeed myself had to go into hospital.

Extract from Wikki on Mr Hunt and the NHS;

Quote:

NHS funding[edit]

In July 2016 a cross-party committee of MP’s ascertained that Hunt had ‘broken his pledges on NHS funding and is misleading the public about health service reforms’. Specifically, it found that 'contrary to government claims to be injecting an extra £8.4bn into the NHS on top of inflation by 2020/21, the real figure was more likely to be £4.5bn'. The committee claimed the 'Government has used a different definition of spending to calculate the figures which made it appear that a larger increase in spending had occurred than was actually they case'.[213]

In October 2016 Hunt was pressed on the issue of NHS funding by the Health Select Committee. Specifically, on the fact that in the previous November Hunt promised the NHS would receive an extra £10 billion a year above inflation, in the five years to 2020. But when questioned he conceded that in the accounts offered for spending had been stretched to include the previous year. This would therefore act to misleadingly inflate the spending figure by £1.5bn, according to a recent report. When challenged by the Heath Select Committee, Hunt admitted “This amount of cash is being handed to the NHS... over the six years.” He confirmed the period “includes the spending review period and an extra year”. It is this use of an 'extra year' in the accounts which added further fuel to the claim that Hunt has knowingly misled the public on public health funding.[214]

Unquote

He also helped produce a policy pamphlet 'An Agenda for New Model Party' calling for the NHS to be abandoned in favour of replacing it with Universal Insurance.

Don't get me started but this flaming government instead of finding for the NHS they are now getting at the doctors.i noticed piers Morgan had a go at hunt on good morning good job too man is useless.

Do any of the former nurses on here think it would be advantageous to revert to training on the job rather than in university? I can't help thinking that this would be better but maybe I'm wrong.

And as has already been said, very lonely.

Being a G p must be one of the most difficult jobs ever. U never know what problem will come through the door next. The government is blaming them to deflect the blame away from themselves. No surprise there then!

My husband ( now retired) worked for a short time as a GP. He had gone out on patient visits at midnight. I had just settled my baby at 3am after a feed when the phone went. ' We need an urgent visit. Send the doctor.' ' The doctor is out . What is the matter?'' My daughter has a pimple on her nose' ' How long has she had it?' 'About 2 weeks'
His GP career didn't last long. A patient demanded antibiotics for a cold.' You've got a cold. I've got a cold. I don't hand out antibiotics for a cold'
I was happy when he decided to retrain in a hospital specialty.

I think the fact that A and E is pushed to the limit is because people now have to wait days to get a Drs appointment. 1 in 3 GPs surgeries can't fill current vacancies so how are they going to magic up more GPs for the extra hours. Patients want to be seen when they feel poorly; Bring back the system of sit and wait to be seen at GPs and I think A and E misuse will lower. Also what's this about taking money out of practices; it's the patients that will suffer

Don't get me started on Agency nurses. All I am going to point out is that they get paid twice as much as an NHS nurse, plus extra for weekends or home care, so there is the temptation to throw a sickie and work for an agency on an 'as and when' basis. Risky business.

Don't blame immigrants for the pressure on the NHS. If all the immigrants who work in the NHS left there wouldn't be many staff left.

Another not usually talked about problem for the NHS is the tax rise they will have to pay from April this year. Changes to the business rate system (yes, business rate) mean the 1,249 NHS Hospitals liable for property tax will have bills increased by 21% over the next five years. Which will mean the bill will be increased from £313m to £377m a year on average for the next five years. (enough to pay for 2,500 extra junior doctors!). Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham for example will see its business rates bill rise from £2.8m a year to £6.9m, the Royal London in East London will see a rise from £6m to £9m. So what the Government gives with one hand they will take with another.

The rise is because of revaluation of property in Britain. Crafty Cameron delayed the last revaluation for two years! Say no more, 'Not on my watch'!

Private Health providers ie Nuffield Health get an 80% discount on tax because they are a registered charity.

Exactly! It's all part of the push towards a 24/7 GP service. GPs can currently choose their own hours, despite financial penalties. However, if they're employed by a private company, their contract will force them to work whatever hours they are told. If they do resign 'en masse', there just won't be enough GPs to go round and they'll have to be employed as locums, so the agencies make big fat profits. GPs are quite deliberately being scapegoated for the current crisis.

GPs are not employees. Most of them are still self-employed, although the government wants to change their contracts.

Of course they are. They won't be content till we are all forced to have privat health insurance bought from their buddies.
I wonder if GPs were to decide in to leave the profession in high numbers how they would the present government explain that to their voters.
GPs are employees and as such can decide this us not for them anymore and retire or seek other employment.
The NHS and the Caring Professions are being treated abominally. In my opinion.
Does John H host Mastermind? Let's all turn it off!

Not to mention agency nurses and layers of paperwork that nurses are supposed to cope with on top of their nursing duties. The list is endless.

Sorry, but it makes my blood boil. I used to be a nurse a long time ago.