NHS

GillT57, teachers, doctors, nurses (social workers too) pay for their degrees and subsequent further training. Doctors will earn enough to pay back their student loans but nurses, teachers and social workers are unlikely to earn large salaries unless they go into management

I'm not concerned about GP's working part time. This enables young parents to be more involved in bringing up their own children and older GP's to ease off a bit as their energy levels drop. I am concerned about the difficulties surgeries are having in recruiting GP's. Ours is a teaching practice in an area that has been a good place to bring up children so in the 50 years I've been with them, there has never been a problem recruiting. There is now. Young doctors don't want the bureaucracy and long hours that go with being in general practice. Our GP's work 10 hour days or longer, regularly.
The same issues arise in other areas of public service, where staff accept they are accountable and must comply with expectations. The difficulty is in the box ticking culture, the constant on line forms to complete that mean more time is spent on that than with service users/client/patients (or victims of crime)

I think we need to differentiate between those who work in a hospital and those who work in general practice.

I go to a large practice which is essentially a small business and a lot of the nurses and doctors are part time. But from what I can gather when they don't work at the surgery, they can be working elsewhere. At least one of our doctors teaches at a hospital and others have private practices. The other thing is the length of the days they work can be very long. I'm not aware of any doctor working school hours, but some do work half days. The doctor who teaches a a hospital told me years ago that only a small number of his students intend to go in to general practice. I wonder if those who choose general practice these days do so on their own terms and the work life balance is definitely part of that decision.

In hospitals HR is involved in the recruitment process and for equal opportunity reasons each post is supposed to be offered on a part-time or full-time basis. There has to be a good reason why role must be full time. HR departments have long been used to looking at staffing on a 'whole unit' basis, so the number of bums on seats is always much higher than the number of jobs. The problem the NHS has is finding the money for staff.

Our town is so short of GPs that the surgery has amalgamated with one 6 miles away.
Almost all the doctors choose to work part time, which is nice for working parents but not possible in most other professions.
In 23 years I’ve rarely seen the same doctor twice and the appointment system has been changed recently, apparently with the intention of diverting most patients to A and E, 12 miles away.

I agree with GillT57 anyone whose training is paid by the tax payer should give back 7 years full time or equivalent. If they don't do this they should have to repay their loan. Also more medics need to be trained. There is fierce competition for places and sometimes students with four A grades at A level do not get a place for medicine. It is madness when we have a shortage of doctors. We don't train enough medics then try to entice medics from overseas some of whom struggle with speaking English and are badly needed in their own countries, who paid for their training then lose them almost immediately.

calderdaleandkirklees999callforthenhs.wordpress.com/2017/12/16/justice4nhs-15-dec-update-on-999-call-for-the-nhs-legal-challenge-to-accountable-care-organisation-contract/

Another big change to the NHS, from STPs, which are not off the ground yet, to Accountable Care Organisations.

evolvepolitics.com/jeremy-hunt-just-hour-long-facebook-live-video-not-go-well/

When I brought up Accountable Care Organisations (ACOs) on another thread it was clear virtually nobody had heard of them. Brexit is dominating the news and major decisions are being taken about the NHS which will not receive parliamentary scrutiny. This was part of my post on the other thread Labour Supporters May Be Ignorant -

From article in The Independent 3rd November 2017 about the proposals to restructure the NHS by introducing Accountable Care Organisations (ACOs)

Legal action is being taken against Jeremy Hunt and the Department of Health over their proposals to restructure the NHS, The Independent can reveal. Plans have been tabled to convert the NHS into a public/private enterprise, which critics say is based upon the US private health insurance-based system. Senior health professionals and campaigners have now come together to take legal action and demand a judicial review, to ensure full parliamentary scrutiny of the proposals.

Still true, Wilma. Not many people have heard about STPs either.
We are going to lose our NHS free at the point of use because, whatever he said in that hour-long video, Hunt is a serial liar.
The problem is that the NHS has always been there in the background as a safety net, and people do not think about what is happening to it unless it affects them and their families.

www.crowdjustice.com/case/jr4nhs-round2/

In the 1950's- 70's a higher percentage of women didn't work and there were fewer women in the professions. If women did work, then a lot gave up when they had their children. Some returned to work once their children were older whilst others didn't. Many who did return had to take jobs that were at lower pay and seniority because their was little provision for part time working or job sharing. In the 90's we saw a shift away from this, especially in the NHS and other public services because they suddenly realised that we were short on some professions eg GP's and nurses. There were more opportunities to work part time and job share, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside again. You only have to look at the number of nurseries and the fact that most hospitals now have them to realise that a lot more women are working. It's just not affordable for families to live on one wage and unemployment is higher, so women more and more may be the main earner. Unfortunately nurses often end up paying out so much for childcare that they're taking home a pathetic amount of money. At least now there's the new childcare payment system, but when I was a new mother in the mid 90's almost half of my take home pay as a nurse went on childcare. I feel that a lot of what GP's do could be done by Advanced nurse practitioners. They're a lot cheaper and more thorough in a lot of cases. Regarding Doctors paying back their student loans their loans are for 5 years as opposed to 3 for a nursing degree and actually a Band 5 nurse starts on just above the earnings threshold for repayment of loans, but of course has nowhere near the earning potential of a GP! It takes a nurse about 10 years minimum to earn the same as an F2 (2nd year training) doctor and the average nursing salary is around £30,000 per year. Interesting fact . There are only 6 nurses (incuding health visitors) for every concultant working in the NHS. 7 years ago there were around 10. Nice to know where the money goes.

Really interest facts Miss W.

In the early 70s I did a PGCE and subsequently spent 3 years doing VSO as a teacher; I have never taught in England, but always felt that my training was part of the overseas aid program.

I qualified in 1978 then spent 10years in general practice in the days when we worked all hours including nights and weekends and also did housecalls. No one waited for an appointment more than the next day.
I left (having had 2 children in the meantime with only 6-8 Weeks maternity leave) to join the department of social security dealing with benefits. I worked for them full time until I had to retire due to I’ll health. I still work part time although I’ll probab retire next March as I’m 73.
I think the country has had good value out of me.

1968 not 78! It’s my 50 year reunion next year!

Iam64- actually, up until August this year, student nurses got NHS bursaries, as did dental and medical students and (I believe)dental hygienists and therapists. From August this year people starting a nursing degree no longer get the NHS bursary whilst medical and dental students continue to receive them. This is despite the fact that between Aug '16 and August '17 the number of nurses and health visitors (WTE) employed in NHS hospital and community health services fell by 0.5% whilst the number of Consultants increased by 3.6%.

Do medical and dental students get burseries

www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/career-planning/study-and-training/considering-or-university/financial-support-university/funding-through-nhs/financial-support-medical-and-dental-2

This is a tad more accurate methinks

What was the problem with my post? As I said-nursing students no longer qualify for NHS bursaries

You said medical and dental students get bursaries - that statement as it stands is worthy of Jeremy Hunt in its misleading incompleteness

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/17/nurses-homeless-britain-housing-costs

This is appalling.

My dd is in her intercalated year of medicine. She has received no bursaries and I am not aware there are any available.

But this is GN - why let the facts get in the way of a good story? It drives me crackers the number f times this happens. That’s why I posted the link - but links as we know are often mocked

maryeliza54- I also said that nurses didn't get a bursary. I get rather tired of people blaming this gov't for the state of the NHS when clearly NHS needs to take some (quite a lot) responsibility for the state of the NHS. Part of the problem is where the money gets spent and the fact that the system isn't efficient. From everything I've seen recently I think we need to start by going back to the "basics" of medicine and nursing. There's a reason pain management, pressure area care, hydration and complications of immobility were drummed into me during my "archaic and task based" certificate in nursing education way back in the 1980's! I was a nurse for 27 years, latterly a nurse practitioner in acute care, and for the past 20 years at least governments and the NHS have shafted nurses. Agenda for change was simply a way to ensure that in the long run nurses, as the largest professional group in the NHS, cost less money. Whenever the cry is "we/you can't do that anymore" or "we have to start monitoring/ auditing/assessing/recording/collecting........" the nurses get lumbered with additional tasks or roles or paperwork. Hence more nurses opting for a lower pension and early retirement and some of the best ones going down other avenues, going abroad or changing career. As for the work experience part of a nursing degree being funded by the NHS, that's a tad misleading methinks. The students provide hands on clinical care to patients and their mentor in the clinical area is a nurse who has to juggle training the student, ensuring they meet their learning outcomes and doing their report alongside caring for their own caseload of patients and maybe being in charge of the ward as well. They don't get protected time to teach and a ward that has student nurses doesn't have a higher nurse to patient ratio.

Nurses still get bursaries in Scotland

So why are you saying you get tired of people blaming the government for the state of the NHS?
The government decides how much money to give the NHS.
Since 2010 the extra amount given has been less than the rate of inflation. Therefore it's been a real cut in finance when costs have been rising.
Hunt knows that, as did Lansley before him.