Scots dementia expert says coronavirus outbreak could be 'quite useful' as it will kill off hospital bed blockers

There will always be people saying things in ways that some find offensive. For me what's important is what they're driving at rather than their style of delivery. As an Ecuadorean friend used to say when he was searching for the right words: "Listen to the meaning, not the words."

I think we probably all agree as to the meaning of what was said, namely that if some bed blockers die as a result of being infected by Covid19, there will be more room in hospitals for other people infected with Covid19 who might recover if they can get hospital treatment.

The meaning isn't offensive, just true.

SueDonim Well you do not know me well, but you do know OF me. With my only income being a reduced state pension and a private pension of £180 per month, I no longer pay any income tax. My DH's pensions go towards his Care Home Fees (he is currently self funding) with the balance of the £3,500 per month met from his savings until they run out. OH does still pay a small amount of Income Tax on his pensions.

However, over the past year OH has had free personal Care both at home and later in the Care Home via the SG and I benefited from free twice daily carers under FPC for 6 weeks while I was home alone with a broken arm. My across the road neighbour is now planning to return to work because of the additional free nursery provision for her wee one. I could go on........

I take it that none of your circle benefit from Free Prescriptions, Bus Passes or have youngsters in receipt of Free Tuition?

One too many believe me’s there

There is not a person in the NHS or care system who already well aware of the failures of the system, believe me Baggs, believe me - but at the risk of repeating myself, using older people as political capital in the face of an epidemic is massively offensive and ill judged. It simply wasn’t the time to talk about it being “quite useful” from a service delivery POV that older people will die and she’s contributed precisely nothing to the emergency planning.

I can see the point but it is her delivery which is at fault.

She does not see patients as people.

They are termed "bed blockers"

I can remember the term being used 25 years ago about a friend's father in Bristol.

She may be stating the obvious and it may be a way of drawing attention to the crisis in bed blocking but I suppose Hitler thought some humans were an inconvenience too.

I suggest that it is blocked beds that are seen as inconvenient, not the people in them. That is the truth too. It is appalling that our social care system is so bad, and so uncoordinated with the health care system, that people, actual people, are left stuck on hospital beds when they should be being taken good care of at home.

This, to my mind, is the whole point of the person's comments in the article.

she seems still to have tremendous influence throughout the country

She absolutely does and as such, her honest and forthright views should have been held in check at this time. There’s certainly a conversation to be had about how health services are funded and delivered, but using the wide scale mortality of older people as a way to score political points in the face of an epidemic is offensive and needless.

Very insensitive and quite shocking.

Yes, thankfully the SG sorted out their error after some pushing that meant many higher rate tax payers were paying less tax. They were told by the many experts who advised them in the run up to the rollout of the new Scottish tax code but chose to ignore it at the beginning.

Anyway, it means that the extra tax I (and all my colleagues in the NHS) pay now pays for my whopping pay increase, which is great as it effectively means we’re exactly where we were a few years ago. As for ithybei g spent where it’s needed - define that? Block grants to councils have been cut and ringfencig/Govt devised policies that are laid at the councils doors mean that local services are being cut drastically.

paddyanne, no, she does not appear to have any filters.
You'd think she'd have learned some along the way.

But, although she may be an ex-employee of NHS Scotland she seems still to have tremendous influence throughout the country, not just Scotland, someone who has had a profound impact on healthcare in the UK. The word care is being used loosely here.

She may be stating the obvious and it may be a way of drawing attention to the crisis in bed blocking but I suppose Hitler thought some humans were an inconvenience too.

She's cagey about her own age. But she is no spring chicken.

As a relative of someone just diagnosed with dementia, as the friend of someone with dementia, I find her attitude and her words offensive.

Baggs is right when she says "Of course the example is horrific. She says that too. But it's also, possibly, the truth, whether we like it or not".

One of the benefits of being a former leader is that you can express your own views (based on many years' experience) without having to toe the party line. The Prof is simply telling the truth as she sees it and highlighting how horrific and shocking that is when it is pointed out bluntly.

Not higher just distibuted differently
Free from tax up to £ 12,500
taxed at 19% up to £14549
taxed at 20%up to £24,945
Taxed at 21% UP TO £43,430
taxed at 41% up to £,150,000
Taxed at46% over £150,000
MOST people dont pay more tax and those who pay the extra penny are happy to do so .The lower rate is where tax should be less when families struggling .
In a caring society people who earn more should be prepared to pay more .Thats something my late father always told me ,he was happy to pay a bit more so others who struggled could pay a bit less.I dare say you need to have socialist views to understand that a penny in the pound over £25k ..not all of the £25 k isn't bringing hardship
I wont answer you're "see no evidence of it being used to help anyone you know" There is certainly evidence to prove that its being spent where its needed

trisher Apparently you are not supposed to state the obvious now because it upsets some people.

There is little need to state the obvious, because it's.... well obvious! There are ways of saying things and she should be astute enough to know the soundbites that would be taken from her speech, which actually covered more than the headline. That these would be distasteful and distressing to families of those groups she identifies is also obvious. Thought and kindness cost nothing.

I agree with SirChenjin’s post of 12:35. A friend who’s husband is currently in hospital with dementia is working with the Dementia Trust to improve services. How nice to know that friend’s husband is deemed worthless and should be got rid of.

As for funding, Scotland already has higher taxes than England but my friends and I see no evidence of it being used to help anyone we know of. God knows what they’re doing with it.

If there is a shortage of intensive care beds it has already been said that they will go to those with a chance of recovery, so some of us are doomed anyway!

No, she doesn’t think they need killing off - just that it would be “quite useful” for hospitals dealing with delayed discharges. You just don’t use that kind of language at this time to describe older people, and someone in her position will know that and should have chosen her words far more carefully.

The two quotes below are what I took from the article. NOT that she thinks the elderly need killing off.

we’ve put people in the wrong places by not having the kind of strategic views that we should have.. Yes. Due to a lack of funding to move them out of a hospital bed, into nursing homes.

a hospital that has 92 delayed discharges. Because there is nowhere else for them to go.

EllanVannin Fri 06-Mar-20 19:31:02
Germ warfare and all that.
I agree with the germ warfare comment. The virus didn't originate in that wet market. It started in a Canadian lab, was stolen by two secret agents who were then expelled from Canada and was worked on in a Chinese lab. This knowledge has been in several academic articles online. Pretty sure they didn't mean it to escape in China, but as for the west...

She’s hugely influential in the field of dementia and very well known in NHS Scotland.

Does it need to be said? Yes. Was that the time to say it? No, absolutely not. Has it upset people who have vulnerable, adults relatives or older people themselves? Definitely.

Her remarks were ill judged and completely pointless at this time. She has achieved precisely nothing in terms of reducing the spread of the virus or the fear that goes along g with it or educating the population about how to reduce their risk of contacting it.

If what she says is true then we've learnt something we jolly well ought to do something about. We should be criticising ourselves and our politicians as much as her.

Shock tactics can be usefu.

She'd be best hoping that her words don't come home to roost.

Perhaps. But if she's as evil as people seem to think, perhaps not. Perhaps she just thinks truth needs stating.

I've never heard of her, don't know anything about her, and don't agree wholeheartedly with her political point, but she has every right to say what she thinks, especially if she thinks that in the long run it will improve things for people with dementia.

I don't see the point in getting all hot under the collar when people say things that are, or could be, manifestly true even though unpleasant. What needs to happen is that people need to implement positive change. If that's her aim then good luck to her.

I'd never heard of her before but my goodness, she's a caution isn't she? Whilst what she said might have some basis in fact, it was a pretty callous and unnecessary statement to make. She'd be best hoping that her words don't come home to roost.

Perhaps she is beginning to suffer from dementia herself?

She is making a political point - at a time when it’s not required. People are hugely concerned about the impact that this will have on their loved ones and for someone who works with older people to use the committee as a platform for her political views to be heard and claiming would be “quite useful” in clearing delayed discharge levels because “people would be taken out of the system”. is ill judged, offensive and completely unnecessary. Not the time, not the place.