The Vaccine

What do you mean by "absolutely valid"?

What are your specific concerns?

But many of the scientist I know love to pretend they know more than they actually do Alegrias2. There isn't some sort of distinction that says scientists are above human failure or immune to pressures exerted on them to produce results. And research and scientific studies work best when they are not pressured or hurried to come up with results.

Then ask that specific question trisher and don't try to cast doubt on the whole idea by questioning the veracity of the trials and the ethics of the scientists.

Alegrias2 Given the absolute and complete mismanagement of Covid by this government I reasonably doubt their ability to oversee an effective and safe vaccination programme. This doesn't mean the vaccines don't work this doesn't mean the scientists aren't doing excellent work. It simply means asking questions about how it will work. There have been mass immunisation programmes done efficiently and effectively in the past, wondering if this one will be is absolutely valid.

We used to live in an environment where public health was pretty well under control, and the chances were that if you got sick, the medical profession had a really good plan for how to treat you. But since CoVid-19 came along there are lots of uncertainties. People like certainty, they want to know exactly how they are going to be affected by the vaccine, or they want to know exactly what the best treatments are if you get sick with the virus. But the truth is that we don’t know, and neither do the scientists, or the medics, because a year ago nobody had even heard of CoVid-19.

In the extreme, this leads to the conspiracy theories because people would really like a simple explanation of how things are, and having someone to blame feels comforting, because it means we just need to expose those who are to blame and all will be well again. And those of us who can’t see that are just gullible, or stupid, of course.

So we need to live with uncertainty and ask questions, but we don’t need to look for problems and think, well that could happen, so it probably will. We can’t go on like this for years while we wait for a vaccine to be proved 99.9999% safe. I trust the trials they are doing and the work of the licencing authorities, not because I’m gullible but because I look at their past performance and understand their decisions. Listen to the facts and then decide, listen to the answers you get when you post valid questions and don’t just conjure up unlikely “what ifs”.

But it is as usual the classic answer of someone who wants the vaccine including the insults- carry on.

I think I said questions they can't answer Elegran that would include the immunity period. Answering they do say they don't know is just semantics

But they do tell us that they don't know how long immunity will last, Trisher. Anyone who hasn't heard that they don't know must have had cottonwool stuffed in their ears and a blindfold over their eyes. Mind you, that seems to describe a lot of posters.

This extreme distrust of the medical profession must spring from the way US doctors all seem to be in pursuit of the almighty dollar, though people are drawn into the madness from all over the place. Health as an industry is aimed at removing as much profit as possible from the pockets of "customers", either directly or via health insurance. When people are aware that they are at the mercy of possibly unscrupulous or obsessive medics they do assume the worst motives of all of them.

With a national scheme for treating patients and paying medics, not related to the level of the ability of the patients to pay, there is perhaps less temptation to prescribe expensive drugs and procedures, and therefore there should be less suspicion that anyone trying to infiltrate nano-whatsits into vaccines and so on would get away with widespread bribing to get their way - and it would take widespread bribery to put such a widespread project into action.

One of the good things of a nation-wide health service is that those working in it are paid to be there and ready to treat people when and if they get ill.

growstuff

Franbern

Just to say Thank You to anewstart for writing such a very amusing (if rather long) rant. Gave me a really good belly laugh - which must be good for me.
Surely, nobody, with any sort of intelligence at all can really believe all this rubbish about us being injected with these nano things to control us.........but it does make such funny reading.
Oh well, suppose it does take all sorts........!!!!!

She didn't write it. She copied and pasted it from a conspiracy website.

?????

No question, I will have it as soon as offered

The problem is that you have to ask the questions that the scientists can't or won't give you answers to. One of them being how long the vaccine immunity will last. It can't be answered because there hasn't been any long-term trial. Now under normal conditions and if there was sufficient vaccine to do a complete mass immunisation programme that shouldn't matter, but there isn't and people will be immunised in batches. So suppose the vaccine doesn't carry a long period of immunity (remember that Covid natural anti-bodies are not as long lived as originally thought) the virus will still be active in the community. Having been vaccinated you may think you are safe, but you may not be, because 6 months or 1 year later the virus may still be contactable and if you were one of the first to have the vaccination you may be vulnerable. Mass immunisation requires just that the ability to immunise whole societies and not just sections of the community.

Franbern

Just to say Thank You to anewstart for writing such a very amusing (if rather long) rant. Gave me a really good belly laugh - which must be good for me.
Surely, nobody, with any sort of intelligence at all can really believe all this rubbish about us being injected with these nano things to control us.........but it does make such funny reading.
Oh well, suppose it does take all sorts........!!!!!

She didn't write it. She copied and pasted it from a conspiracy website.

Marjgran

Actually I love lots of you - growstuff is doing some heavy lifting on here!

I'm not sure I am doing "heavy lifting" here, but I'm a natural cynic. That's why, like suzie, I find it patronising to be told to "do my research" by the conspiracy theorists. I take a number of medications long-term and I always like to know what the side effects might be, so read proper medical sites (not conspiracy and scare-mongering ones) with a fine toothcomb.

I'm not a scientist, but I do understand the principles of science and peer reviews. I have learnt to read "journalese" and know what a difference little words like "could" and "might" make.

I'm getting fed up with "copy and paste" scare mongering and find it quite frightening how some of it finds its way into mainstream thinking. Anti-vaxxers use the same kind of tactics as flat earthers and creationists. "Research" seems to consist of using Google and, lo and behold, the top sites are the ones the conspiracy theorists themselves pay for. I always go back to sites such as those from bona fide universities/hospitals or publications such as the Lancet or BMJ.

On the other hand, I really don't expect a vaccine to be a magic wand, as some of the media seem to be promoting.

My stance is that vaccines are progress, but we're still in the very early days. I don't doubt their safety, although I'm more cynical about how long it will be before we can let our guard down. I think we'll know about it, if the same number of people suffer vaccine side effects as are dying or suffering long-term complications from Covid.

I'll have the vaccine when it's offered, although I'm fifth on the current list of priorities, so don't know when that will be or whether there will be enough doses for me.

Just to say Thank You to anewstart for writing such a very amusing (if rather long) rant. Gave me a really good belly laugh - which must be good for me.
Surely, nobody, with any sort of intelligence at all can really believe all this rubbish about us being injected with these nano things to control us.........but it does make such funny reading.
Oh well, suppose it does take all sorts........!!!!!

claresc0tt

Can't wait to get any one of the vaccines for Covid and get back to normal life. Trust in the scientists and just get on with it!

Me also. My sleeve is already rolled up and my arm is waiting!!!!

Elegran and OceanMama. Exactly! The original question was whether we would be having the vaccine or not. That question you have both answered admirably.

Elegran

The bottom line is - Get the best information you can, from as near to the source as you can, then make up your own mind. If you decide not to take up the offer (and it is an offer, it is not compulsory) then make doubly sure that you are doing everything else you can to avoid catching the virus or transmitting it to others.

One of my favourite quotes for the free world is "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and if we want to be free of a nasty disease and of being dictated to, then voluntary vigilance and responsibility is the only answer - unless we just give up and encourage anarchy with each person considering only themselves and to hell with everyone else.

Completely agree Elegran.

With previous serious effects of a vaccine in my family and autoimmunity, I will be considering this on an individual level very carefully. This will include talking to my doctor about my concerns as an individual based on past experience. Not there yet though as there is no current roll out.

BTW even if a vaccine doesn’t suppress all transmission, a lower viral load will lessen transmission, and that benefits the community, and the vaccination lessens hospitalisation - none of the test subjects in the Oxford trial needed hospital treatment if they still got the virus despite vaccination- and that benefits the community. We are the older ones - we are exactly the people who should be engaging with vaccination.

Yes, we will definitely have the vaccination, whichever one our surgery offers. It would not be licensed unless it was safe so no worries about that.

Actually I love lots of you - growstuff is doing some heavy lifting on here!

The bottom line is - Get the best information you can, from as near to the source as you can, then make up your own mind. If you decide not to take up the offer (and it is an offer, it is not compulsory) then make doubly sure that you are doing everything else you can to avoid catching the virus or transmitting it to others.

One of my favourite quotes for the free world is "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and if we want to be free of a nasty disease and of being dictated to, then voluntary vigilance and responsibility is the only answer - unless we just give up and encourage anarchy with each person considering only themselves and to hell with everyone else.

Risks and benefits. Maybe the actuary might have something to contribute to this, but I somehow doubt it.

If there was a 1% risk of serious side effects, not only would that be unprecedented, we would have seen it already in the thousands of trial volunteers.

People often bring up Pandemrix, the vaccine that is said to have caused narcolepsy. One person in 50,000 is thought to have suffered from narcolepsy because of that vaccine. That means, if everyone in Scotland, where I live, took Pandemrix, 100 people would have been affected in total.

More than 100 people have died in Scotland with Covid in the last 4 days. So weighing up the risks, I'll have a vaccine, thanks.

If you want to talk risk, better bring your best game. I'll be here all day.

Oh dear oh dear. And I love you Suziewoozie!

Juniper Bruising is rarely the fault of the person doing the injection. The needle can pass through capillaries causing them to leak. That is why the bruises happen and why the swab is pressed hard on the site.
Hygiene will be supervised. What makes you think that will not be part of the training?