Gransnet forums

Health

The Vaccine

(613 Posts)
annsixty Sun 22-Nov-20 11:39:05

Has everyone made up their minds about the vaccine yet?

I an 83 so in what is possibly the second group to be offered it.
I just cannot make a decision about whether or not to accept.

I have always had the flue jab, had pneumonia one and shingles, so why am I so undecided about this?

I have spoken to several friends in the same age group and they are all eager to go ahead, in fact one is champing at the bit and says he will be first in the queue.

Any thoughts ?

growstuff Wed 25-Nov-20 02:57:52

anewstart Why did you copy and paste a load of garbage from this site:

childrenshealthdefense.org/news/components-of-mrna-technology-could-lead-to-significant-adverse-events-in-one-or-more-of-our-clinical-trials-says-moderna/

Aren't you capable of putting your conspiracy into your own words?

For those who haven't clicked on the link, "Children's Health Defense" is an American anti-vaccination group.

This is what Wiki has to say about it:

A study found Children's Health Defense was one of major buyers of anti-vaccine Facebook advertising in December 2018 and February 2019, the other being Stop Mandatory Vaccination. Heavily targeting women and young couples, the advertising highlighted the alleged risks of vaccines and asked for donations. According to an analysis by NBC News, the group is one of three major sources of false claims on vaccination shared on the internet, the other two being the fake news site Natural News and the website Stop Mandatory Vaccination. Facebook subsequently refused to carry anti-vaccination advertising from the group.

...

On May 8, 2019, while some areas in the United States were struggling with a resurgence of measles due to low vaccination rates, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, Joseph P. Kennedy and Maeve Kennedy McKean publicly stated that while their relative Robert has championed many admirable causes, he "has helped to spread dangerous misinformation over social media and is complicit in sowing distrust of the science behind vaccines."

Make your own mind up! Would you give any credence to a tin pot bunch of cranks, who seem very interested in taking your money?

growstuff Wed 25-Nov-20 03:09:12

This is what the American Council on Science and Health (Promoting science and debunking junk since 1978) has to say about Children's Health Defense:

Anti-Vaccine Group 'Children's Health Defense' Smells A Coronavirus Conspiracy

By Cameron English — April 1, 2020

Children's Health Defense says governments and corporations are using the coronavirus (SARS-COV-2) to advance a "global immunization agenda." The anti-vaccine group claims that our leaders just needed the right pandemic as a pretext to goad us into getting vaccines. This is a clever story. It's also false.

If you think the new coronavirus pandemic is an unexpected tragedy public health officials are hoping to end swiftly, you're mistaken, says anti-vaccine group Children's Health Defense (CHD).

Sure, the US government is eager to bring the virus to heel, fearing the global economy could collapse with so many people stuck at home. But never mind such inconvenient facts, the group argues, because the rich and powerful are dragging out the pandemic to advance the “global immunization agenda”—all so “Big Pharma” can profit:

Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, is predictably shining a spotlight on risky and uncertain coronavirus vaccines that may not be available for two years … Will Big Pharma ... be allowed to cash in on this catastrophe with speculative, patentable vaccines at the expense of the therapeutics needed to save lives now?

Even worse, these plans have been in the works for a long time, CHD claims:

For those who follow the global immunization agenda … the announcement of a new pandemic didn’t come as a surprise. “Pandemic preparedness” has been well-funded and a buzz word for a long time … The latest simulation for preparedness was Event 201, a rehearsal of a coronavirus pandemic organized on October 18, 2019 in New York by Johns Hopkins University, the Gates Foundation and the World Economic Forum.

… What better than viral terror to influence public opinion and health policies on vaccine battles raging on both sides of the Atlantic?

This version of events takes factual information and contorts it into a nonsensical narrative that collapses under scrutiny. The bigger problem, however, is that spinning a sensible policy like pandemic preparedness into evidence of a worldwide conspiracy misleads politicians and the public into making decisions that amplify the risk posed by pandemics.

Planning ahead is a conspiracy?

It's true that governments and international organizations prepare for and try to anticipate disease outbreaks. This isn't the scandalous revelation CHD implies, though. Since there are seven coronaviruses that can infect humans (we knew of six before SARS-COV-2 was identified), and three cause severe illness, it makes sense that we'd prepare for one to cause a pandemic. As Johns Hopkins said of the Event 201 conference,

“The exercise illustrated areas where public/private partnerships will be necessary during the response to a severe pandemic … Experts agree that it is only a matter of time before one of these epidemics becomes global … A severe pandemic … would require reliable cooperation among several industries, national governments, and key international institutions.”

The school has denied that conference participants predicted the current crisis or modeled its impacts on public health, as the three-hour event video will confirm. But here's the CliffNotes version if you want to spend your shelter-in-place time watching Netflix: 15 experts said it was imperative to develop treatments for a novel coronavirus and a plan to quickly move resources around the globe to mitigate a pandemic.

These concerns were well founded since researchers are now rushing to develop or identify drugs that can combat the virus and health care providers are facing shortages of vital medical supplies. The more important point is that the conference was designed to prevent the very sort of “viral terror” CHD believes could be used to manipulate parents into vaccinating their kids.

“A techno-communist global government”

CHD also says international disease preparedness campaigns are designed to institute a “techno-communist global government” that can “bypass informed consent laws and constitutional rights.” We shouldn't discard our civil liberties for the sake of public health, but such over-the-top rhetoric confirms the group doesn't comprehend the threat we're facing.

Pandemics like the one we're living through are not new. There will be more in the future, and immunization will be our best bet at surviving them. Call me a globalist shill, but I'm not bothered by rich people and governments encouraging the public to get vaccinated before an infectious disease hits.

Think of the alternative: a deadly virus begins making its way across the world, taking thousands of lives as it spreads, and people with the resources and influence to stop it do nothing—or worse, encourage its spread. Now that'd be a conspiracy worth calling out.

Ironically enough, that scenario is actually closer to reality than the “globalist agenda” story. With over a million dollars in donations and Robert F Kennedy, Jr. as its founder and spokesman, Children's Health Defense is part of a well-funded movement that continues to convince parents to forgo their children's immunizations.

growstuff Wed 25-Nov-20 03:12:48

It would appear that Children's Health Defense has fallen foul of Facebook and is suing because its fake news has been banned.

I suppose its "agents" are looking for new places to post.

growstuff Wed 25-Nov-20 03:38:42

Another interesting article about anti-vaxxers:

www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/most-notorious-anti-vax-groups-use-facebook-lay-groundwork-against-novel

Fortunately, very few GNers are gullible enough to believe this nonsense.

OceanMama Wed 25-Nov-20 04:01:34

I tend to think that those who accept any medication or procedure without questioning or investigating, or those who reject any medication or procedure without the same, are equally questionable. The truth is that any medication or procedure (including vaccines) has some element of risk to it. The risk might be smaller than the benefit, but it is still there, however small. Even if 1% of people suffer a particular adverse reaction to something, that's all well and good unless you are in that 1%. We don't know who that hypothetical 1% is until it's happened.

I am keeping an open mind and not committing one way or other to the vaccine or against it. I just won't be first in line because I want to see what happens to those who are quick on the uptake and make a decision when I have more information.

claresc0tt Wed 25-Nov-20 06:50:07

Can't wait to get any one of the vaccines for Covid and get back to normal life. Trust in the scientists and just get on with it!

suziewoozie Wed 25-Nov-20 07:46:39

OceanMama

I tend to think that those who accept any medication or procedure without questioning or investigating, or those who reject any medication or procedure without the same, are equally questionable. The truth is that any medication or procedure (including vaccines) has some element of risk to it. The risk might be smaller than the benefit, but it is still there, however small. Even if 1% of people suffer a particular adverse reaction to something, that's all well and good unless you are in that 1%. We don't know who that hypothetical 1% is until it's happened.

I am keeping an open mind and not committing one way or other to the vaccine or against it. I just won't be first in line because I want to see what happens to those who are quick on the uptake and make a decision when I have more information.

There’s no evidence on here that those who are willing to have the vaccine are accepting it without question or investigation. Many of us are on regular medication and are fully aware thank you of the balance of risks and benefits involved in taking medication. Just this week after test results came back I decided not to take the treatment offered after balancing the risks and benefits. However there will nearly always be a subjective element involved in such decisions as to the weighting of the various elements in the equation For example, in my recent decision, one benefit was a cosmetic improvement - I gave that no weighting but maybe had I been much younger, that might have been more important to me.
With the vaccine , the weight given to the benefits for many many people will vastly outweigh the risks. I found your post quite patronising frankly.

Tweedle24 Wed 25-Nov-20 08:09:12

I love the way the anti-vaccers make the accusation that their opinions are not countered with facts. What nonsense! There are some highly qualified and knowledgeable people on here alone who have done just that and many more in the wider community.

OceanMama Wed 25-Nov-20 08:14:34

suziewoozie

OceanMama

I tend to think that those who accept any medication or procedure without questioning or investigating, or those who reject any medication or procedure without the same, are equally questionable. The truth is that any medication or procedure (including vaccines) has some element of risk to it. The risk might be smaller than the benefit, but it is still there, however small. Even if 1% of people suffer a particular adverse reaction to something, that's all well and good unless you are in that 1%. We don't know who that hypothetical 1% is until it's happened.

I am keeping an open mind and not committing one way or other to the vaccine or against it. I just won't be first in line because I want to see what happens to those who are quick on the uptake and make a decision when I have more information.

There’s no evidence on here that those who are willing to have the vaccine are accepting it without question or investigation. Many of us are on regular medication and are fully aware thank you of the balance of risks and benefits involved in taking medication. Just this week after test results came back I decided not to take the treatment offered after balancing the risks and benefits. However there will nearly always be a subjective element involved in such decisions as to the weighting of the various elements in the equation For example, in my recent decision, one benefit was a cosmetic improvement - I gave that no weighting but maybe had I been much younger, that might have been more important to me.
With the vaccine , the weight given to the benefits for many many people will vastly outweigh the risks. I found your post quite patronising frankly.

Why? It seems to me there has been quite a few blanket statements made around the place to bring it on or people saying they will line up for a vaccine as soon as it's available - even months before we knew if there could be one available. I made a general statement based on some absolutist statements I've seen. You might be taking a healthy middle ground with your consideration of things but there are many who aren't.

Elegran Wed 25-Nov-20 08:15:48

llizzie2 Do you expect to get a different letter (or none) than everyone else in the country? Those dispatching them don't know that you are computer literate and never take the flu jab anyway. These letters are posted in bulk, everyone gets the same ones, and they have to assume the lowest possible level of IT knowledge - or even any knowledge.

Juniper1 Wed 25-Nov-20 08:20:51

Tweedle24
What damage could they do?
Not sure reference to damage has reassured me. I have had 2 terrible botch jobs which caused massive bruising, from professionals. And other times perfect.
What concerns me also is the hygiene arrangements surrounding non professional administration.

OceanMama Wed 25-Nov-20 08:24:03

Why? It seems to me there has been quite a few blanket statements made around the place to bring it on or people saying they will line up for a vaccine as soon as it's available - even months before we knew if there could be one available. I made a general statement based on some absolutist statements I've seen. You might be taking a healthy middle ground with your consideration of things but there are many who aren't.

I should add to this, I don't really care what someone else chooses to do. Get vaccinated or don't. I'll just worry about deciding for me and mine.

Tweedle24 Wed 25-Nov-20 08:28:29

Juniper Bruising is rarely the fault of the person doing the injection. The needle can pass through capillaries causing them to leak. That is why the bruises happen and why the swab is pressed hard on the site.
Hygiene will be supervised. What makes you think that will not be part of the training?

Marjgran Wed 25-Nov-20 08:35:08

Oh dear oh dear. And I love you Suziewoozie!

Alegrias2 Wed 25-Nov-20 08:37:06

Risks and benefits. Maybe the actuary might have something to contribute to this, but I somehow doubt it.

If there was a 1% risk of serious side effects, not only would that be unprecedented, we would have seen it already in the thousands of trial volunteers.

People often bring up Pandemrix, the vaccine that is said to have caused narcolepsy. One person in 50,000 is thought to have suffered from narcolepsy because of that vaccine. That means, if everyone in Scotland, where I live, took Pandemrix, 100 people would have been affected in total.

More than 100 people have died in Scotland with Covid in the last 4 days. So weighing up the risks, I'll have a vaccine, thanks.

If you want to talk risk, better bring your best game. I'll be here all day.

Elegran Wed 25-Nov-20 08:41:42

The bottom line is - Get the best information you can, from as near to the source as you can, then make up your own mind. If you decide not to take up the offer (and it is an offer, it is not compulsory) then make doubly sure that you are doing everything else you can to avoid catching the virus or transmitting it to others.

One of my favourite quotes for the free world is "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and if we want to be free of a nasty disease and of being dictated to, then voluntary vigilance and responsibility is the only answer - unless we just give up and encourage anarchy with each person considering only themselves and to hell with everyone else.

Marjgran Wed 25-Nov-20 08:47:24

Actually I love lots of you - growstuff is doing some heavy lifting on here!

Shropshirelass Wed 25-Nov-20 08:50:37

Yes, we will definitely have the vaccination, whichever one our surgery offers. It would not be licensed unless it was safe so no worries about that.

Marjgran Wed 25-Nov-20 08:51:50

BTW even if a vaccine doesn’t suppress all transmission, a lower viral load will lessen transmission, and that benefits the community, and the vaccination lessens hospitalisation - none of the test subjects in the Oxford trial needed hospital treatment if they still got the virus despite vaccination- and that benefits the community. We are the older ones - we are exactly the people who should be engaging with vaccination.

OceanMama Wed 25-Nov-20 09:01:25

Elegran

The bottom line is - Get the best information you can, from as near to the source as you can, then make up your own mind. If you decide not to take up the offer (and it is an offer, it is not compulsory) then make doubly sure that you are doing everything else you can to avoid catching the virus or transmitting it to others.

One of my favourite quotes for the free world is "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and if we want to be free of a nasty disease and of being dictated to, then voluntary vigilance and responsibility is the only answer - unless we just give up and encourage anarchy with each person considering only themselves and to hell with everyone else.

Completely agree Elegran.

With previous serious effects of a vaccine in my family and autoimmunity, I will be considering this on an individual level very carefully. This will include talking to my doctor about my concerns as an individual based on past experience. Not there yet though as there is no current roll out.

Tweedle24 Wed 25-Nov-20 09:24:54

Elegran and OceanMama. Exactly! The original question was whether we would be having the vaccine or not. That question you have both answered admirably.

Franbern Wed 25-Nov-20 09:39:15

claresc0tt

Can't wait to get any one of the vaccines for Covid and get back to normal life. Trust in the scientists and just get on with it!

Me also. My sleeve is already rolled up and my arm is waiting!!!!

Franbern Wed 25-Nov-20 09:52:22

Just to say Thank You to anewstart for writing such a very amusing (if rather long) rant. Gave me a really good belly laugh - which must be good for me.
Surely, nobody, with any sort of intelligence at all can really believe all this rubbish about us being injected with these nano things to control us.........but it does make such funny reading.
Oh well, suppose it does take all sorts........!!!!!

growstuff Wed 25-Nov-20 10:15:49

Marjgran

Actually I love lots of you - growstuff is doing some heavy lifting on here!

I'm not sure I am doing "heavy lifting" here, but I'm a natural cynic. That's why, like suzie, I find it patronising to be told to "do my research" by the conspiracy theorists. I take a number of medications long-term and I always like to know what the side effects might be, so read proper medical sites (not conspiracy and scare-mongering ones) with a fine toothcomb.

I'm not a scientist, but I do understand the principles of science and peer reviews. I have learnt to read "journalese" and know what a difference little words like "could" and "might" make.

I'm getting fed up with "copy and paste" scare mongering and find it quite frightening how some of it finds its way into mainstream thinking. Anti-vaxxers use the same kind of tactics as flat earthers and creationists. "Research" seems to consist of using Google and, lo and behold, the top sites are the ones the conspiracy theorists themselves pay for. I always go back to sites such as those from bona fide universities/hospitals or publications such as the Lancet or BMJ.

On the other hand, I really don't expect a vaccine to be a magic wand, as some of the media seem to be promoting.

My stance is that vaccines are progress, but we're still in the very early days. I don't doubt their safety, although I'm more cynical about how long it will be before we can let our guard down. I think we'll know about it, if the same number of people suffer vaccine side effects as are dying or suffering long-term complications from Covid.

I'll have the vaccine when it's offered, although I'm fifth on the current list of priorities, so don't know when that will be or whether there will be enough doses for me.

growstuff Wed 25-Nov-20 10:16:29

Franbern

Just to say Thank You to anewstart for writing such a very amusing (if rather long) rant. Gave me a really good belly laugh - which must be good for me.
Surely, nobody, with any sort of intelligence at all can really believe all this rubbish about us being injected with these nano things to control us.........but it does make such funny reading.
Oh well, suppose it does take all sorts........!!!!!

She didn't write it. She copied and pasted it from a conspiracy website.