No jab no job

Urmstongran

And French people aren’t keen on being vaccinated anyway Galaxy are they? I read somewhere that 40% of. french people won’t be taking up on the vaccination offer. No wonder Macron can virtue signal that he’s giving away 5% of all vaccines from the get go.

The latest polling in France shows a larger % who are willing to be vaccinated now and amongst those showing hesitancy they express it less negatively. I was surprised though when I learned a few weeks ago about their general attitude towards vaccination and their relatively low uptake of the flu jab.

Galaxy

But when introducing laws you have to look at the ripple effect. There will be residents in care home who dont want to be vaccinated, in the same way there will be children with safeguarding concerns, who are unvaccinated who need to attend school. We need to be careful with the decisions we make and the speed with which we make them. I think those the vaccine conspiracy theories are ridiculous and damaging beyond words. But I am also concerned about creating a culture where people think they have the right to ask people about private medical information (I dont mean employers I mean Joe Public) and I can already see signs of that happening. The impact of that on those witb disabilities will not be good.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks this is a simple problem with a simple solution just isn’t thinking quite frankly.

And French people aren’t keen on being vaccinated anyway Galaxy are they? I read somewhere that 40% of. french people won’t be taking up on the vaccination offer. No wonder Macron can virtue signal that he’s giving away 5% of all vaccines from the get go.

Sorry terrible typos.

But when introducing laws you have to look at the ripple effect. There will be residents in care home who dont want to be vaccinated, in the same way there will be children with safeguarding concerns, who are unvaccinated who need to attend school. We need to be careful with the decisions we make and the speed with which we make them. I think those the vaccine conspiracy theories are ridiculous and damaging beyond words. But I am also concerned about creating a culture where people think they have the right to ask people about private medical information (I dont mean employers I mean Joe Public) and I can already see signs of that happening. The impact of that on those witb disabilities will not be good.

M0nica

All that is being asked is that the unvaccinated do not work with those most vulnerable to the disease. It seems a small and reasonable ask.

Depending on how it’s done - there’s an awful example given on here of what looks like just abuse of power.

There’s very little evidence that is happening though Galaxy is there? The reason identified by Public Health Wales as to why there are still about 15% unvaccinated in care homes in Wales is that in homes where there have been outbreaks, they don’t vaccinate for 20 days after the last case is identified. Where I live the vaccination rate is now 94%. There will though always be a small percentage in care homes who are not suitable to be vaccinated.

And if those living in care homes refuse to be vaccinated what do you do then. It as never as simple as all that is being asked.

All that is being asked is that the unvaccinated do not work with those most vulnerable to the disease. It seems a small and reasonable ask.

It’s strange that there’s an objection to this possibly by some people who accept the obligation to have vaccines when their holiday destination demands them.

Yes, and part of me wonders if it would be better to start with something like holiday travel - no jab, no holiday - before moving onto more life-changing exclusions such as jobs. On the other hand though, putting exclusions in place for purely punitive reasons shouldn't be what this is about.

I agree that reaching out should be a starting point, but then what? If people won't listen, or listen but still refuse to be vaccinated, why should we put vulnerable people who have no choice in the matter at risk?

In the past we had leper colonies for unfortunates who (through no fault of their own) put people at risk of catching leprosy, and people with Plague painted crosses on their doors to warn visitors against coming into contact inadvertently. Very harsh, but deemed necessary to protect the population.

Asking people to be vaccinated is nothing like that. I totally understand the civil liberties objections, and as I've said, I'm normally first in the queue to bang the freedom drum, but this is one of those cases where one person's freedom not to vaccinate steps on the freedom of another not to die.

Aren't people engaging with them? There have been a stream of iniatives aimed at those who have been worried by fake news about side effects. Well known people from every background have been filmed having the jab and talking about it in many languages.

If anyone started a scheme for one to one counselling they would immediately be accused of brainwashing and coercing people. No one has yet said they would sack any staff who did not have the jab, although a number have said it will be a prerequisite when they advertise for staff in the future.

I am not sure what else can be done. What would you suggest?

Difficult, this one.
I was delighted to be offered a jab, even before I expected it.
It’s strange that there’s an objection to this possibly by some people who accept the obligation to have vaccines when their holiday destination demands them.

I’m fine with a suggestion on here that if you don’t want the jab, don’t apply to the job which demands it for new employees.
However I’m uneasy about any coercion.

M0nica

suziewoozie I would never criticise those who refuse vaccination, for most that is a personal choice, but choices can have consequences and allowing someone who is not vaccinated against COVID, a highly infectious disease, for any reason, including an involuntary one, to then work with people who are hyper vulnerable to the disease and more likely to be severely ill and die if they get it, to me is completely unacceptable.

I get all that - that isn’t what I was talking about at all. I was talking about the potential for demonisation of unvaccinated people and how as a society instead of saying you’re sacked, we think of ways to engage with them in the first instance.

suziewoozie I would never criticise those who refuse vaccination, for most that is a personal choice, but choices can have consequences and allowing someone who is not vaccinated against COVID, a highly infectious disease, for any reason, including an involuntary one, to then work with people who are hyper vulnerable to the disease and more likely to be severely ill and die if they get it, to me is completely unacceptable.

Here is the reply from someone involved in the collating and use of the data coming in re. Covid and the vaccination programme.

nanna8

I’d bet my bottom dollar that will come in in Australia. It is just our sort of thing. Like no school if they haven’t got a vaccination certificate.

And that’s the way to do it! I like the way things are managed over there nanna!

I was thinking about the situation in France with regard to compulsory vaccination for schooling. I wonder how that works in practice. Obviously there will be exemptions for those who cant have the vaccines for health reasons but presumably there will need to be exemptions for children where there are safeguarding issues. Which actually in each school will be quite a number of children.

Grannyrose15 Could you quantify your statement Vaccination is totally unnecessary for large swathes of the population.?

A few links to reputable peer reviewed research would be helpful.

I’m finding this discussion really helpful in sorting out all the many and complex issues invest involved. Yesterday it was also covered wall to wall on other forms of media and whilst some of the discussion was good, there was also a certain feel of the baying mob wanting to hunt down the evil unvaccinated. It’s almost a year since health and care workers were facing Covid head on without even proper PPE ( I remember the use of black bin bags), they worked to exhaustion on our behalf and some died, lived separately from their families for weeks to keep them safe. Lots of other workers like bus drivers and shop workers begged for screens or the right to wear masks at work. Even today many public facing workers have to put up with selfish people putting them at risk. So I suppose my point is that we should remember this and treat all these workers with respect and the minority who are refusing a vaccine should not be so harshly criticised but different methods used.

I’d bet my bottom dollar that will come in in Australia. It is just our sort of thing. Like no school if they haven’t got a vaccination certificate.

Vaccination is totally unnecessary for large swathes of the population.
Once everyone who is vulnerable has been vaccinated there will be even less of a need to vaccinate the young.
Compulsory vaccination - by the back door - is yet another nail in the coffin of our liberal democracy.

I think it was nightowl who expressed grave misgivings about this "no jab, no job" proposal. I agree with her that it could be a very slippery slope to insist that some jobs must include proof of vaccine. And there seems to be a likelihood that a person would have to continue having boosters and possibly different vaccines to counter different strains of the virus.

It is this sort of state control that allows governments to argue certain laws forcing people to undergo medical procedures are "for the good of the nation". In China, when it was thought the population was growing too fast to be realistically sustainable, the government imposed a one child policy. There were cases of women being forced to have abortions and of families being impoverished by high fines. Do we really want to live in a country where a person can be denied access to jobs or amenities or is subjected to hatred and derision from the majority?

I think people should have the right to refuse medical interventions. Every winter, there is grave concern that there will be an unusually contagious and deadly flu outbreak - and every year many lives are lost through flu. Should we then apply the "no jab, no job" in relation to flu also?

I would never try to persuade anyone to have or not have the vaccine. I believe it is important that people have the right of control over their own bodies. To impose these sorts of restrictions to jobs is, in effect, forcing many people to be vaccinated. And where will it end - will there be "mission creep", whereby, as has been suggested recently, those without proof of vaccination will be denied entry to shops, restaurants, cinemas, etc etc?

I think it's very complex doodledog because I also agree with the whole point of protecting the vulnerable. But what if the vulnerable are the unvaccinated. So do we ban unvaccinated residents from care homes for example.
I am sorry about what happened to your son, that must have been dreadful at an already stressful time.

Someone is in a terrible accident requiring emergency care.
Would it be right to leave them to it if they aren't vaccinated?

How about hospital and care workers having the right to refuse to care for unvaccinated people?
People who work (and the public who use) hospital canteens, and lifts, and shops?

Someone may need chemo, should they be refused if they aren't vaccinated?