Free at the point of use?

NellG

I love how facts, reality, true examples and people's personal experiences end up having zero bearing in these discussions.

GN - spiritual home of the logical fallacy.

Care to enlighten us NellG?

I think that is because it becomes a conversation and they can wander a bit.

I love how facts, reality, true examples and people's personal experiences end up having zero bearing in these discussions.

GN - spiritual home of the logical fallacy.

Doodledog

GrannySomerset

And yet people spend large sums on holidays but don’t think about paying for cataract ops, new knees and hips, etc, and leaving an NHS bed for someone less fortunate. We all need the NHS for emergencies, clinical trials etc, and are lucky to have it, but anything which reduces the pressure must be good.

A private patient does not leave a hospital bed for someone less fortunate unless they go to a fully private hospital and see a doctor who does not use NHS drugs or facilities.

What they do is jump the queue so that someone with cataracts, arthritic knees or hips has to wait even longer if they don't have the funds to pay.

I can understand some people putting themselves first because that is what they do. I am also very aware that sometimes it is a case of pay or (as people have said upthread) lose your sight or the use of your legs, in which case it really is Hobson's choice, but what I really don't like is the hypocrisy of pretending that queue jumping is being done as a charitable gesture.

And what about the people who can't afford to save their eyesight or legs? Don't they matter?

maddyone

Monica
Plenty of people never contribute to the NHS but we don’t deny them treatment. Any person who does not have a job does not pay income tax and by your assessment doesn’t contribute to the NHS. However we all contribute via VAT to the tax take in this country, and that includes the RF. And the RF pay taxes on their income. Tourists to the country do not pay income tax but receive NHS emergency treatment if necessary. And they pay VAT on services or things they buy.

There can't be many people in the UK who don't contribute to the NHS, which is mainly funded from general taxation. Only 25% (approx) of taxation comes from income tax and a bit less from NI contributions. Unless somebody lives in a cave and survives by foraging, he/she pays tax. Even tourists to the country pay tax on their accommodation and anything else they buy, some of which goes to the NHS.

GagaJo

Ultimately, I think healthcare, like education, should all be state run, with no private healthcare or education. This way, it would be essential for those in power / the wealthy to maintain standards so their families don't lose out. I know it is unrealistic and won't happen, but... it is the only way equality is possible.

Like Franbern I agree with this, but you’re right that it isn’t going to happen.
Money allows you to have better chances after choices.

Monica
Plenty of people never contribute to the NHS but we don’t deny them treatment. Any person who does not have a job does not pay income tax and by your assessment doesn’t contribute to the NHS. However we all contribute via VAT to the tax take in this country, and that includes the RF. And the RF pay taxes on their income. Tourists to the country do not pay income tax but receive NHS emergency treatment if necessary. And they pay VAT on services or things they buy.

GagaJo

Ultimately, I think healthcare, like education, should all be state run, with no private healthcare or education. This way, it would be essential for those in power / the wealthy to maintain standards so their families don't lose out. I know it is unrealistic and won't happen, but... it is the only way equality is possible.

Totally and absolutely in agreement with this

How about alternative therapies. Should people be banned for paying for those? That would be a ban on using those therapies.

DS and I both had therapy for a problem that the NHS did not recognise as existing at the time we had it, although, it is now recognised and treatments are available.

Then there is osteopathy, chiropracture, reflexology, acupuncture etc. These are only available if you pay for them and all those have been assessed by reputable sources as being efficacious to a greater or lesser extent, then there are all the other therapies, that are not seen as being efficacious, although they do no harm.

I’ve spent way too much time over the past 18 months receiving nhs care which has, for the most part, been excellent. However, I agree with Urmstongran that it may be time for the nhs to be leaner, to concentrate on doing its original function of providing basic care for all our citizens. There is so much inefficiency and waste. Nurses on the wards have to spend so much time and effort in sorting out basic mistakes in prescriptions and procedures that doing their job must be quite demoralising at times. I was coincidentally on a zoom catch up with friends yesterday afternoon and two were discussing the difficulties of returning nhs crutches anywhere.
As for the contribution made by student doctors to their training, I believe it costs about £230,000 to train the average doctor so surely they should work in the nhs for a few years before going abroad or into private practice for greater rewards. I speak as one who has family members who work in the nhs on both the medical and nursing side so I know how hard they have to work.

GrannySomerset

And yet people spend large sums on holidays but don’t think about paying for cataract ops, new knees and hips, etc, and leaving an NHS bed for someone less fortunate. We all need the NHS for emergencies, clinical trials etc, and are lucky to have it, but anything which reduces the pressure must be good.

A private patient does not leave a hospital bed for someone less fortunate unless they go to a fully private hospital and see a doctor who does not use NHS drugs or facilities.

What they do is jump the queue so that someone with cataracts, arthritic knees or hips has to wait even longer if they don't have the funds to pay.

I can understand some people putting themselves first because that is what they do. I am also very aware that sometimes it is a case of pay or (as people have said upthread) lose your sight or the use of your legs, in which case it really is Hobson's choice, but what I really don't like is the hypocrisy of pretending that queue jumping is being done as a charitable gesture.

We all have differing priorities. Here in the UK we are free to choose. Health & education for me.
Life is different for all of us. I think the two systems work together.

And yet people spend large sums on holidays but don’t think about paying for cataract ops, new knees and hips, etc, and leaving an NHS bed for someone less fortunate. We all need the NHS for emergencies, clinical trials etc, and are lucky to have it, but anything which reduces the pressure must be good.

They would still be paying for their own healthcare, just in a different place.

The health care and the queue should be the same no matter how much you pay. They only things that you should be able to pay for is whether you get a private room, better food or other luxuries

What happens, as in the case in question if the patient has never contributed to the NHS and is, therefore in the habit of paying for all their own health care?

How many children's lives have been saved by parents appealing for funds to take them to another country for a pioneering operation that simply isnot available in the UK.

If a person gets private health care, they do not give up their right to NHS care, which we have all paid for, via our taxes. Therefore I see no conflict in a mix and match approach. No one jumps the queue, they simply join a different queue. It may be shorter, but it’s different. Some doctors work in both sectors, but they fulfill their contracted hours in the NHS. If they choose to work outside the NHS then, that’s up to them.

It necessarily Mollygo .... if there was no private healthcare provision then all the doctors and surgeons who provide it would work that 10% in the NHS I suppose.

I do see what your getting at here Alegrias in that health care ought not to be something money can buy. Everybody in the same queue. Maybe if the NHS could decide whether it s running a business (Trust boards -v- other Trusts with the money following the patient) or providing a service, that would be a good start.

Also maybe it’s time for the NHS to be leaner? Do less but do it well. Stop printing leaflets and booklets in 15 languages. Stop providing translators for free. (In Spain it’s in Spanish. Don’t speak it? Bring a mate with you who does. No exceptions). Work out a system whereby crutches and other appliances can be returned after use and re-used instead of Elf & Safety saving ‘no’. If the running costs could be culled to a more efficient way of delivery then money could be directed elsewhere - more nurses, speech & language therapists etc. Raise taxes a bit. Work out best practice in other countries - Canada, Germany etc - and tweak our model to be better.

That would be great. A health service for ALL to be proud of. If it was good and efficient there would be no need for private consultations.

Alegrias1 I totally agree, and ever since I had that experience I have campaigned and raised funds and worked with various groups to improve the provision of those things that I needed. I write letters, I joined my NHS trust, I respond to Government consultations and generally make a noise. Working with a charity I help people find therapists, give advice on welfare benefits and funding. I try to give them the sort of help I so badly needed. I don’t want to say what happened to me as it would be too outing, but I’m by no means unique. I had a large family and my employers fighting my corner but some people are struggling alone. You shouldn’t have to make a noise or have money to access decent healthcare.

The NHS is worth fighting for and I’m up for it. I’m far from being a saint but I do hate inequality.

Alegrias1, an excellent post.

People in the private wings of NHS hospitals are helping fund the NHS. They do not get access to NHS facilities on the cheap,they pay for everything.

Most NHS consultants do not work fulltime in the NHS but also undertake private work as well. It may be that if a world class surgeon is working in the NHS, he can serve both NHS and private clients best if he does not have to spend hours travelling across London to see his private patients, but can instead use that time to serve all his patients.

We no longer have private health insurance, but when we did, some 26 years ago, I didn’t notice anyone rushing in to say we could be excused from paying the part of NI or tax that supported the NHS.
Private healthcare means you pay twice, and if you are earning enough to have private health care, you are paying more than lower earners in NI and tax towards the NHS.
I’m not saying it’s fair to have both private health care and NHS, but if all the people who currently have private health care suddenly had to use the NHS, the waiting lists would be even longer.

I have really been blackmailed into joining a dental health scheme . We live in a smallish town with one dental practice. With the excure of covid they are doing no routine NHs check ups. I had a tooth problem and was panned off by the dentist who saw me . I knew he did not look at the tooth properly and he said there was no problem . Fast forward a week and I asked to join the health programme . I was seen for a full check up three days later and have appointments to have teeth seen to . You cannot join the scheme until you have a clean bill of health so they do all the remedial work on the NHS before you start reaping the benefit of private care. I have so many problems I will join but DH has gone to the next town and been seen there .

CrazyH, I note you state we have the best care system in the world. Why do you think no other country has ever copied it?