Free at the point of use?

And yet people spend large sums on holidays but don’t think about paying for cataract ops, new knees and hips, etc, and leaving an NHS bed for someone less fortunate. We all need the NHS for emergencies, clinical trials etc, and are lucky to have it, but anything which reduces the pressure must be good.

We all have differing priorities. Here in the UK we are free to choose. Health & education for me.
Life is different for all of us. I think the two systems work together.

GrannySomerset

And yet people spend large sums on holidays but don’t think about paying for cataract ops, new knees and hips, etc, and leaving an NHS bed for someone less fortunate. We all need the NHS for emergencies, clinical trials etc, and are lucky to have it, but anything which reduces the pressure must be good.

A private patient does not leave a hospital bed for someone less fortunate unless they go to a fully private hospital and see a doctor who does not use NHS drugs or facilities.

What they do is jump the queue so that someone with cataracts, arthritic knees or hips has to wait even longer if they don't have the funds to pay.

I can understand some people putting themselves first because that is what they do. I am also very aware that sometimes it is a case of pay or (as people have said upthread) lose your sight or the use of your legs, in which case it really is Hobson's choice, but what I really don't like is the hypocrisy of pretending that queue jumping is being done as a charitable gesture.

I’ve spent way too much time over the past 18 months receiving nhs care which has, for the most part, been excellent. However, I agree with Urmstongran that it may be time for the nhs to be leaner, to concentrate on doing its original function of providing basic care for all our citizens. There is so much inefficiency and waste. Nurses on the wards have to spend so much time and effort in sorting out basic mistakes in prescriptions and procedures that doing their job must be quite demoralising at times. I was coincidentally on a zoom catch up with friends yesterday afternoon and two were discussing the difficulties of returning nhs crutches anywhere.
As for the contribution made by student doctors to their training, I believe it costs about £230,000 to train the average doctor so surely they should work in the nhs for a few years before going abroad or into private practice for greater rewards. I speak as one who has family members who work in the nhs on both the medical and nursing side so I know how hard they have to work.

How about alternative therapies. Should people be banned for paying for those? That would be a ban on using those therapies.

DS and I both had therapy for a problem that the NHS did not recognise as existing at the time we had it, although, it is now recognised and treatments are available.

Then there is osteopathy, chiropracture, reflexology, acupuncture etc. These are only available if you pay for them and all those have been assessed by reputable sources as being efficacious to a greater or lesser extent, then there are all the other therapies, that are not seen as being efficacious, although they do no harm.

GagaJo

Ultimately, I think healthcare, like education, should all be state run, with no private healthcare or education. This way, it would be essential for those in power / the wealthy to maintain standards so their families don't lose out. I know it is unrealistic and won't happen, but... it is the only way equality is possible.

Totally and absolutely in agreement with this

Monica
Plenty of people never contribute to the NHS but we don’t deny them treatment. Any person who does not have a job does not pay income tax and by your assessment doesn’t contribute to the NHS. However we all contribute via VAT to the tax take in this country, and that includes the RF. And the RF pay taxes on their income. Tourists to the country do not pay income tax but receive NHS emergency treatment if necessary. And they pay VAT on services or things they buy.

GagaJo

Ultimately, I think healthcare, like education, should all be state run, with no private healthcare or education. This way, it would be essential for those in power / the wealthy to maintain standards so their families don't lose out. I know it is unrealistic and won't happen, but... it is the only way equality is possible.

Like Franbern I agree with this, but you’re right that it isn’t going to happen.
Money allows you to have better chances after choices.

maddyone

Monica
Plenty of people never contribute to the NHS but we don’t deny them treatment. Any person who does not have a job does not pay income tax and by your assessment doesn’t contribute to the NHS. However we all contribute via VAT to the tax take in this country, and that includes the RF. And the RF pay taxes on their income. Tourists to the country do not pay income tax but receive NHS emergency treatment if necessary. And they pay VAT on services or things they buy.

There can't be many people in the UK who don't contribute to the NHS, which is mainly funded from general taxation. Only 25% (approx) of taxation comes from income tax and a bit less from NI contributions. Unless somebody lives in a cave and survives by foraging, he/she pays tax. Even tourists to the country pay tax on their accommodation and anything else they buy, some of which goes to the NHS.

Doodledog

GrannySomerset

And yet people spend large sums on holidays but don’t think about paying for cataract ops, new knees and hips, etc, and leaving an NHS bed for someone less fortunate. We all need the NHS for emergencies, clinical trials etc, and are lucky to have it, but anything which reduces the pressure must be good.

A private patient does not leave a hospital bed for someone less fortunate unless they go to a fully private hospital and see a doctor who does not use NHS drugs or facilities.

What they do is jump the queue so that someone with cataracts, arthritic knees or hips has to wait even longer if they don't have the funds to pay.

I can understand some people putting themselves first because that is what they do. I am also very aware that sometimes it is a case of pay or (as people have said upthread) lose your sight or the use of your legs, in which case it really is Hobson's choice, but what I really don't like is the hypocrisy of pretending that queue jumping is being done as a charitable gesture.

And what about the people who can't afford to save their eyesight or legs? Don't they matter?

I love how facts, reality, true examples and people's personal experiences end up having zero bearing in these discussions.

GN - spiritual home of the logical fallacy.

I think that is because it becomes a conversation and they can wander a bit.

NellG

I love how facts, reality, true examples and people's personal experiences end up having zero bearing in these discussions.

GN - spiritual home of the logical fallacy.

Care to enlighten us NellG?

Not really Alegrias, 'enlightenment' is not often at the top of the agenda on GN. Why incorporate new information when entrenching is so much easier.

OK, of course you are under no obligation to share anything. But you do have an interesting take on these things so I thought it was worth asking.

growstuff
Why are you claiming I said people don’t pay onwards the NHS if they don’t pay income tax. I actually said

We all contribute via VAT to the tax take in this country

and

Tourists..........pay VAT on services or things they buy.

Stop looking for something to pick fault with in other people’s posts!

I’m not sure Prince Philip’s heart procedure prevented anyone from having their cataracts done!

I was lucky enough to have my first hip replacement done in a private hospital at the NHS's expense - it was lovely, superb treatment, meals brought on tray to bedside . Then the following year I got pushed on to a cobbled road in York and ended up in York District Hospital with a badly shattered femur, and my hip had to be done again!!

I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but my understanding of private health care is that if you have for example cancer, despite seeing a consultant privately and getting your diagnosis, you are not prioritised for the treatment needed to treat your condition.

Private health cover doesn't prioritise you for life saving treatment.

Mr. S. needed routine surgery a few years ago and this was done privately, under the NHS due to extensive waiting lists.

And what about the people who can't afford to save their eyesight or legs? Don't they matter?

Oh, for goodness' sake!

The whole thrust of my post is that I do not approve of private medicine, precisely because people who can't afford to pay DO matter.

The fact that I can understand why some people pay to jump the queue just because they can, and others feel that they have no choice because of the nature of their condition does not mean that I approve of the system.

Only a saint would allow themselves to go blind so that someone else could have an operation, but a one-tier system wouldn't force people to have to make that choice.

I was in B.U.P.A. as a perk of my employment once. I seem to recall that all aspects of treatment are charged, not simply the consultant's fee. Drugs, ward accommodation, nurses' time, etc. My daughter had a tonsillectomy under the cover of B.U.P.A. and the real benefit was to be able to choose when the operation is performed which, in school time, is ideal. We chose half-term. If a patient's condition gets really critical they tend to be dumped back in the NHS system because there's all the hi-tech equipment on hand. Quite how that is charged I don't know, but if it isn't it ought to be!
Private schooling, it might be argued, relieves the state system of the extra pupils while the parents still pay for the LA schools through taxation.

If you asked, “Do you think that people who can’t afford to pay DO matter?”
The answer would be, “Yes of course they do.”
If you asked, “Should we not pay for anything because others can’t?” the result would probably be less conclusive.

You're probably right Mollygo.

But the best answer is still that nobody should be using their good fortune or wealth to get better healthcare than anybody else.

I’d rather DH kept his sight rather than think of others who can’t afford to pay for treatment.

I actually also paid for a private MRI scan to jump the queue for a back operation to get me out of a wheelchair, I’d already waited 2 years and there was no end in sight.

I was selfishly thinking of No. 1.

As I said above LadyGracie I'm not criticising anyone who posts here about the decisions they make for their own or their families' health. I'm criticising the system that makes this necessary.