Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

You are playing the victim again, VS.

I don’t always fail to understand you by any means, but the post I am referring to made no sense. Others had the same problem with it, so it’s not just me.

If ‘make no assumptions’ is being added to ‘don’t disagree as it’s hostile’, and don’t point out word-twisting as it is bickering’ it will soon be impossible for anyone to post from a feminist perspective. I know that you personally didn’t mention being hostile or bickering, incidentally (I’m not making assumptions), but they (or at any rate a narrow and specific definition of them) have already been listed as constraints to posts giving any opposing points of view.

Unless every point is explained and all angles explored in every single post there will always be assumptions made. They can easily be corrected if they are wrong, but if no-one made assumptions then communication would slow right down and every post would become even more laborious.

VS What Rosie51 and Doodledog said about women, to save me posting and you misunderstanding me.
I wouldn’t say I don’t understand you, though I suspect that what I understand about you would not fit your own perception of yourself.
I’ve never been aware that you are silenced for any reason, but I’ll be sure to notice if that happens in future.

My problem is doodledog that the handful of people who claim to not understand me, or otherwise ignore me, do so on any thread or topic whether we are in agreement or not so that feels very much like silencing to me

Most seem to understand me fine so I'm happy with that

Anyway I'm not willing to argue it further as we haven't been able to reach an understanding in the past. So please be advised the topic of me not making sense is now closed with me,

Of course, if no assumptions are made and I am asked to clarify I will of course do my best. If assumptions are made, I will just state that they aren't true and that is all.

I support women. By which I mean those individuals blessed with XX chromosomes, vulvas, vaginas, cervixes, uteruses..... even when one or more of those functions fails to work as nature intended. I'll support transwomen to live their best lives, but sorry, you can't identify into my sex class, and especially without any consultation with me. Your male patriarchy really doesn't intrude on the female class much as you want it to. You are not female, no amount of surgery' or hormones will make you female. Present/live as female and I will support you 100%, claim to be female and sorry but reality kicks in.

Oh, and Snap, Rosie!

VioletSky

doodledog again I haven't called anyone ridiculous at any point.

If my comments genuinely don't make sense to you, it is not for lack of trying on my part and there is obviously nothing I can do that will change that... So don't read them, I don't mind at all, it would only benefit me.

It would be very difficult for me to debate this topic if I ignore both your and GagaJo's posts .

And we are accused of trying to silence those who disagree!

You miss the point, VS.

The term Cisgender suggests that gender is what defines someone, whereas 'woman' describes their sex. They are not the same thing.

Forcing the term onto those who don't believe in it is offensive. It is offensive in its own right - comparing it to pronouns used by transpeople is a side issue. FWIW I am happy to use declared pronouns in most circumstances, but I am not happy to have the need to declare them thrust upon me, and I am not happy to define myself in terms of an ideology with which I disagree.

I am a woman, men are men, transwomen are transwomen and transmen are transmen.

There is no link between trans people calling themselves trans and me not wanting to be called cis. If transpeople want to be called something else, that's fine by me so long as there is a distinction between women and whatever the term is that transwomen might prefer. A woman and a transwoman are not the same thing, although they are equally worthy of respect. The difference is that women are biologically female and transwomen are not.

Cis and trans were never intended for gender debates! They refer to completely different ideas!!! Maybe research scientific papers?????

Now if any person found "cisgender" offensive but felt it acceptable not to use a trans person's correct pronouns or changed name, I'd be very baffled indeed.
Then mirror my bafflement at people willing to use 'cisgender' when it's offensive to so many people.......seems some people's sensibilities have more weight than other people's sensibilities.......... now what could possibly be the reason??????
It may astound you to read this but.... SOME OF US DON'T HAVE A GENDER IDENTITY......we accept we're male or female because we recognise our sex.... amazing eh?

doodledog again I haven't called anyone ridiculous at any point.

If my comments genuinely don't make sense to you, it is not for lack of trying on my part and there is obviously nothing I can do that will change that... So don't read them, I don't mind at all, it would only benefit me.

I can't sleep so here is an explanation.

Cisgender is a real word which now exists in the Oxford dictionary as does its meaning.

Cis originates in Latin, meaning "this side". So cisgender means identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth.

Trans in Latin means "that side". So transgender means identifying with a different gender than you were assigned at birth.

If we are to say cisgender is offensive then so is transgender or trans woman or trans man, in which case we should drop trans too and just call them women or men. Obviously everyone on these threads (as I have been told several times) does accept trans people and is happy to use the word transgender so there should be no problem with the use of language that helps these discussions make sense.

Or we could go one step further? Is "woman" offensive? Or how about heterosexual? Widely used as self discriptive.

Cisgender is a word that has been used for around 30 years or so and has not suddenly changed meaning or become offensive and people who dislike it as a label seem to be happy to label trans people or themselves in other ways.

Now if any person found "cisgender" offensive but felt it acceptable not to use a trans person's correct pronouns or changed name, I'd be very baffled indeed.

BTW, I pointed out to you earlier that I had not accused anyone of being ridiculous for different opinions and you haven't addressed that and I would like everyone held to the same standards I am held too continuously
I hadn't addressed it as I didn't want to say again that your post made no sense whatsoever. I can't tell who you are calling ridiculous, as I can't make sense of the post, sorry.

As for the research paper, direct quotes might not be opinions, but they can be presented out of context to give a different impression, and without having read the paper you really don't know what is a direct quote and what is a summary.

It might not matter - the article might accurately summarise the paper - but my point is that it is ironic that you accuse others on this thread of not having read 'studies and research' when you haven't read it yourself.

VS it is a derogatory term!!!! Even if you do not use it deliberately in that way does not mitigate that.....just as any other derogatory term isn't lessened by intent! To claim you 'need' to use such a term does not in any way excuse you. Would you excuse any other poster using a derogatory term because they felt it essential to expressing their view????? I rather think not. Please use your words to express your views in a less confrontational way

Good night all, early start for me

I am very sure I do not have my own version but the opinion on the difference between your screenshot and the actual care document is mine

Misleading VS? But I did look at the WPATH documentation and wrote a ‘strap line’ of the parts I thought were most important for people to know about.
Are you saying that your version doesn’t agree at all?

Rosie I'm afraid I can't stop using that term because I need it in order to best express myself. It does not mean anything derogitary if that helps.

Please can you show me where I placed no importance on people who regret transition?

I very clearly said that better support earlier could prevent mistakes from happening.

I place equal importance on anyone being harmed, I simply said that asking trans people to quietly get on with it and receive harm so that cisgender people do not is effectively silencing trans people and putting their needs behind cisgender people

There needs to be balance and equality of freedom to be authentic

I took an age to type my one finger typing post. Mollygo the content of your post angers me, drives me to despair, and saddens me beyond belief. I do wonder if all the adherents and proclaimers will own their part when the walls come tumbling down. I can almost hear the claims of "I was just being 'kind'" "not my fault". Tell that to the young people that have to live with the consequences.

Mollygo that's entirely misleading and you can very easily download and read the WPATH Standards of care for the ages reversable and irreversible treatments can be available, (not recommended) and the standard of care and the criteria they must match in order to ensure these are the right choices for them

VioletSky

Let's not forget that these many thousands of voices need to be heard and we cannot in good conscience allow an unreasonable delay in finding professional support to those who need it and are at risk of imminant harm for the very small minority who discover they are in fact cisgender.

This puts cisgender before trans people

When actually the simple truth is, providing expert support much earlier may prevent those types of mistakes from happening in the possible 5 year delay to get the correct help.

for the very small minority who discover they are in fact cisgender.

Do you have statistics for this assertion? Wasn't that one of the criticisms of the Tavistock that no records going forward eg of de-transitioners etc were even considered?
Do you really not consider that people who have undergone life changing surgeries... double mastectomies or penis inversion.... who discover it was a dreadful mistake, to be in any way important? Are they simply 'collateral damage' to you? 'Cisgender' is considered an offensive term to a great many people (including me!), it was coined by transgender people and the supporting activists with no consultation at all. It might be kinder, and definitely more considerate, to refrain from using it.

Jeanainsworth the necessity of a supportive environment is vital, lack of that, even more than lack of hormone treatment, might well lead to thoughts of suicide.
However it should not include the support given by some parents I have read reports about and in ONE instance had dealings with, who once having “accepted” their child’s/teen’s concerns about whether or not they are the wrong gender, go full steam ahead to get treatment, whether or not the child/teen is convinced that that is what they want. These occurrences may be extreme but they exist and in some other countries, body altering treatments may well be available before a child is old enough to drive, have sex or vote in this country. Read the WPATH recommendations for these operations.

doodledog I have read the findings, and the quoted pieces from several articles. Direct quotes are not opinions. Findings are not opinions.

Again, some concerns mentioned earlier on the thread have been covered which you can read in one of the posted links.

BTW, I pointed out to you earlier that I had not accused anyone of being ridiculous for different opinions and you haven't addressed that and I would like everyone held to the same standards I am held too continuously

I don't know if you are familiar with the US school system janeainsworth

K-12 means kindergarten to 12th grade.

Basically what that means is that trans people may have worse mental health as adults if they are harassed (bullied) at school for being transgender.

So actually nothing to do with being trans or transitioning and purely to do with how they are (unacceptably) treated by others

VioletSky

Let's not forget that these many thousands of voices need to be heard and we cannot in good conscience allow an unreasonable delay in finding professional support to those who need it and are at risk of imminant harm for the very small minority who discover they are in fact cisgender.

This puts cisgender before trans people

When actually the simple truth is, providing expert support much earlier may prevent those types of mistakes from happening in the possible 5 year delay to get the correct help.

Is this a direct quote from the study, or is it from an opinion piece reporting on the findings?

Have you read the study that you berate the rest of us for having failed to do?

VS this is from the pubmed link you posted:
“ Conclusions: Although past research has shown TGD youth who undergo social transition have favorable mental health outcomes in the short term, they may have worse mental health in adulthood (my italics) if not protected from K-12 harassment based on gender identity. It is the responsibility of clinicians to emphasize the importance of adolescents having safe and affirming social environments.”

How does that equate to the title of this thread (and the title of the indie article) Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults ‘have better mental health’
The conclusions as stated seem to me to imply that the crucial thing is not the timing of the hormone therapy but indeed the necessity of a supportive environment, as many in this thread have stated.

Let's not forget that these many thousands of voices need to be heard and we cannot in good conscience allow an unreasonable delay in finding professional support to those who need it and are at risk of imminant harm for the very small minority who discover they are in fact cisgender.

This puts cisgender before trans people

When actually the simple truth is, providing expert support much earlier may prevent those types of mistakes from happening in the possible 5 year delay to get the correct help.