Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

If comments here or elsewhere call out what they feel is missing from ongoing research rather than address the very real concerns that have been highlighted....

Then:

Of course it's not ridiculous to question why that may be happening and what impact that has on trans people themselves who already must face many hurdles to be their authentic selves.

IMO there's a lack of depth to the statistical 'evidence'. We don't know for example the many variables which would for me, give this research more validity.

Social and economic factors should be taken into account as these alone can account to a certain extent for the amount or lack of family and peer group support.

Percentages with regard to suicide and suicidal thoughts are insufficient without any information as to what % of these % are because those concerned having made the decision came to regret it, or didn't get the family and peer group support they needed, or weren't given access to hormonal treatments early enough.

There are simply too many unknown variables which should be known and until they are, make the statistical 'evidence' questionable.

To take anyone's points based on their concern for young people being harmed in any way, if hormonal treatments are available at too early an age as an attempt to silence trans support, is ridiculous.

Everyone including the trans community, perhaps particularly the trans community, should be concerned that the needs of anyone whatever their age, considering making this life changing decision is given the best medical and psychological support available.

I will have had the same yearly training as you Gagajo.

All together our training is not to push ideas onto children, it is to support them individually as they form their own.

Collectively it is to support children to understand what our British Values are and to teach them how to grow up open minded and tolerant.

I completely agree, Kali2.

Very interesting Gagajo.

And yet- I am concerned that über tolerance with young teeenagers, can lead them to take massive steps that could become irreversible. Personally, I think teenagers who feel they are in the wrong gender, should be totally supported, with clear open doors, but not pushed through said door too early.

It is perfectly normal for teenagers to question their sexuality, and for some their gender- and they should be told this- and that all options will be opened to them at 18, if they still feel that way. There are cases which indicate that they regret making the decisions so early. Even my niece (then nephew)- who went for the full change aged 18- after threatening to commit suicide if the medical team did not agree- now says it was too rushed, not in her mid 30s. 100%- explanation of options and clear info that access will be there- and try and support and yet give some more time- is how I feel (and NO I am not medically trained, let alone a specialist- but have discussed this with many medics.)

Ok, but in the pleasantest possible way, how can there be open and honest debate if you are basing it on the premise that any disagreement is an orchestrated campaign to silence trans support?

Aimed at no one specific in all honesty.

I am asking for no more than pleasantness. It's an emotive subject but we can remain polite.

If that was another dig at me, I will also make a statement.

I am not anti-trans and am not trying to silence anything.

How can you say that hostility on any thread about trans is an attempt to do anything? Any hostility from me comes from being misrepresented and having my words twisted. It is there for all to see.

If, by 'demands', you mean requests for clarification, or for data to back up the 'interesting' things you post, then of course people will ask for them, although anyone who has taken time to post on these threads will know it is probably pointless.

What you are basically asking is that we take your googled stats and anecdotes as gospel, refrain from asking questions, and not get 'unpleasant' when you twist our words.

It seems you were right, Urmstongran .

I am not attempting to silence trans support. If you think someone is doing that it would be good if you could be specific rather than making sweeping statements.

? Seems we're both disappointed MG.

However. A statement. I'm aware that the whole reason for the hostility on any trans thread is an attempt to silence trans support. It's an orchestrated and deliberate approach.

For that reason alone, I'll continue to post interesting topics and articles on this subject and to attempt amicable discussion. I won't go along with arguing, unpleasantness or demands. But I will happily engage in friendly debate.

Intend.

I don't ever intending to bicker. It's just that I don't like being misrepresented, and as it's happened so many times I decided to point out when it happened.

I am very happy to engage in a proper debate, but if my posts are twisted I will defend myself. I won't stop engaging though - when there are obvious flaws in an argument I reserve the right to point them out.

GagaJo

Doodledog, I refuse to have an argument. I posted an interesting article, that's all. No cut and thrust from me unfortunately. I'm aware that makes me boring/disappointing. Story of my life!

Mollygo, plenty of statistics available online. Take your pick. Some show lower levels, some show higher. I found some on Google.

But I wanted to find your figures GagaJo. Surely you wouldn’t mind sharing your source, especially because of your OP statement. Look forward to the link.

I won't be insulted if you refuse to engage with me. It's up to you if you want to.

These forums are meant to be for us to enjoy engaging in. Not bickering. Let's not?

Unbelievable! You misrepresent my posts, and then accuse me of wanting an argument. I'm not surprised that being challenged on your twisting of the words of others is the story of your life - people can only take so much, and I for one am sick of it on these threads.

Finding stats on Google doesn't count for much either, as I'm also sure you are aware - you may take the rest of us for fools on here, but it's not at all difficult to see through your tactics.

Doodledog, I refuse to have an argument. I posted an interesting article, that's all. No cut and thrust from me unfortunately. I'm aware that makes me boring/disappointing. Story of my life!

Mollygo, plenty of statistics available online. Take your pick. Some show lower levels, some show higher. I found some on Google.

There’s no information in that Independent article as to whether the Stanford study is an on-going one. A lot can happen to people in six/seven years.
It would be good to know how the present day mental and physical health of the respondents is, how many of them have fully transitioned, how many have de-transitioned.
This applies to both those who were given hormone therapy and those who were not given it.

The one or two people I have known who have transitioned later, in their 30s or 40s do seem to have more problems. My friend's brother seemed to have transitioned quite successfully but after a couple of years decided that whatever his problem was, it wasn't being in the wrong body and went back to live as a man. He may not have been helped by a distinct lack of sympathy from his family.

Read the WPATH information about what they recommend as suitable ages and treatment. I won’t put the link because I’m quite sure the same people who got it removed last time would do so again.
Next, I’d like to know the answer to Doodledog’s question in her 10:05 post today. I can’t find these figures online.

No, I was referring to the academic marking that Doodledog mentioned earlier in the threat.

While we are on the subject of your misrepresentation of my posts, I was referring to the fact that marking dissertations alerts me to inaccuracies, fallacies and yes, downright misrepresentation in posts. What else could I have meant? That I was so happy correcting papers that it somehow meant that I didn't care about transpeople?? Again, it looks suspiciously as though you are deliberately misunderstanding what I am saying, or attempting to spin it as evidence that I am transphobic, as you were doing above, and also when you suggested that I was more interested in 'paperwork' than in pastoral care of students.

Which leads me to a post earlier that you may have missed, where I queried your assertion that 1 in 4 transpeople attempted suicide, and >80% have thought about it. I am interested to know how these figures were arrived at, when there is no baseline for measurement of the numbers of transpeople. If you mean 80% of the people in the study, we would need to know how the sampling was done - ie who was chosen to take part and why? Without knowing that, how do we know if the respondents weren't predisposed to suicidal thoughts for reasons unconnected to their trans status?

It is easy to dismiss the support of the trans movement as populist.

I didn't. Do you even read people's posts before going on the attack?

I agreed with Galaxy that if experts are advising that treatment should not start at a young age, we should take notice, and commented that a refusal to listen to experts is a populist stance.

That is not the same thing at all as 'dismissing the trans movement as populist', and it's very hard to believe that you thought it was. It is hard not to draw the conclusion that yet again you are misrepresenting my words to make me sound unreasonable.

I think at the moment, accessing any kind of expert support is next to impossible Iam64. 5 year wait currently.

The information coming out of the Tavistock, seen as the Uk centre Of excellence suggests early drug treatment is unhelpful and may cause harm
I want the best support and treatment for children and families.

janeainsworth

^I'm more interested in the flesh and blood in front of me, than the paperwork.^
gagajo if you are involved in the education and pastoral care of young people surely you have a duty of care to inform yourself of the ‘paperwork’ (I assume you mean research papers) that might be relevant to their issues?

They ‘consented’ to the treatment before the legal age of consent, which puts the responsibility onto the adults making the decisions for them
doodledog I agree, the issue is whether a young person can give valid & informed consent to treatment. This applies to any medical procedure.

No, I was referring to the academic marking that Doodledog mentioned earlier in the threat.

All teachers have to undertake Safeguarding training annually JA. There is also a clear set procedure for reporting any concerns about children/young people in schools or any educational setting.