Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

There is no need to make personal and disparaging comments about my professional standards, about which you know nothing. That is a low blow, even for you, but I am used to these below the belt comments from you, and will not rise to them by reporting your post - something I have never done on here other than for spam posts.

I have asked a simple question, which is not out of context, so no, I don't understand your resistance to answering it. Whenever these discussions happen you refer to how (in your opinion) sticking to the two sexes that have served people well for centuries would require genital examination, and that butch women would be questioned about their sex at every turn. I genuinely don't see how that would be the case, as it hasn't happened yet, as far as I know.

Nor do I know which 'inaccuracies' you are accusing me of believing. Sex is recorded on passports. People are delineated by sex in everyday life. It is done by acceptance that people are who they say they are, unless there is good reason for someone to be questioned. This would only happen under very rare circumstances (I am struggling to think of any) and even then, they would be asked for documentation such as a birth certificate or passport, rather than a physical examination.

If you don't understand taking one quote in a discussion is taking that remark out of context Doodledog I dread to think what sort of academic standards you work by. Still I suppose it is what I have come to expect.
I'm not going to engage. If you choose to believe inaccuracies that is your choice. I didn't bring sex into it. Those wanting sex on their passports did. Those thinking people can be delineated by their sex in everyday life did. I'm just asking how it will be done. Which is I think a valid question. If you choose to answer it or not is entirely your decision.

trisher

Doodledog

I don't want to have my life ruled by the sex I was born and have to produce evidence of that sex wherever I go.
You really are obsessed with being asked to prove your sex, and by having your genitals examined. Why would you need to? In all my life I have never been asked to prove my sex, and don't know anyone who has.

It's not me asking to identify anyone by sex Doodledo I know how you love to take quotes out of context and try to argue something irrelevant but really is that the best you can do?

I'm taking nothing out of context, and i'm not arguing anything, relevant or otherwise. You have often posted that the only way to determine sex is if people have their genitals examined, and that this would have to happen 'wherever you go', which I have always thought a bit strange. Why would you (or anyone) need to have to prove your sex, anywhere?

It may be that people have to prove their sex before taking part in competitive sport to avoid cheating, but as male bodied people can now enter as women I assume that it is no longer a requirement? Under what other circumstances would a genital examination be necessary? I have no idea.

Rosie51

trisher You really can't hazard a guess which of these three women was actually born female? Now I'll acknowledge it's not always this easy, but you'd allow them all to be women with no challenge at passport control, but would challenge a butch looking woman who declared herself female.

I'm not asking you to believe in anything Rosie51 neither was Dave Allen. That's the point of the quote. Your god. Nothing to do with me . Your belief nothing to do with me. You can believe anything you like so can others.
As I said you can't check gender you can check sex. If you don't understand how authorities use the things they can check to control people that isn't my problem

So as you can't check gender the gender classification is a useless bit of information, I agree wholeheartedly. I do think you verge on paranoia with regards to the amount of state control we have. Maybe we shouldn't have birth records at all, don't want nasty people finding out we were born and how old we are. That's a point why do I have to declare my actual age on my passport, I fancy being 25 again?.

How many times have I to say I wouldn't challenge anyone but if you insist females must be identified there is going to have to be a way of doing that. All the examples you post just show how horrendous it will be for women once they are expected to show they are female. Nothing to do with me I don't want sex ID at all.

Trisher @18:55.
Passports should continue to record the immutable fact-Sex. Women are AHF. but you want anyone who fancies the term to be allowed to use it.
I already said that those who wish to be non binary, tw or tm should have the opportunity to express that in their passport.
I don’t see how it can be right for some people to be allowed to lie. Think of all the comments about politicians at the moment. Is one lie worse than another?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-871420-danielle-muscato-danielle-muscato-24-apr-at-10-07am-if-you-53257914.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-898555-alex.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-445857--101970846-aubreyblanche.jpg

trisher You really can't hazard a guess which of these three women was actually born female? Now I'll acknowledge it's not always this easy, but you'd allow them all to be women with no challenge at passport control, but would challenge a butch looking woman who declared herself female.

I'm not asking you to believe in anything Rosie51 neither was Dave Allen. That's the point of the quote. Your god. Nothing to do with me . Your belief nothing to do with me. You can believe anything you like so can others.
As I said you can't check gender you can check sex. If you don't understand how authorities use the things they can check to control people that isn't my problem

So as you can't check gender the gender classification is a useless bit of information, I agree wholeheartedly. I do think you verge on paranoia with regards to the amount of state control we have. Maybe we shouldn't have birth records at all, don't want nasty people finding out we were born and how old we are. That's a point why do I have to declare my actual age on my passport, I fancy being 25 again?.

Guys, imagine yourselves saying all this stuff to a trans person and the awful effect it would have on their mental health

Doodledog

*I don't want to have my life ruled by the sex I was born and have to produce evidence of that sex wherever I go.*
You really are obsessed with being asked to prove your sex, and by having your genitals examined. Why would you need to? In all my life I have never been asked to prove my sex, and don't know anyone who has.

It's not me asking to identify anyone by sex Doodledo I know how you love to take quotes out of context and try to argue something irrelevant but really is that the best you can do?

Rosie51

Yes I liked that Dave Allen farewell, but do you actually believe in their gods, because you're insisting we have to believe in people's gender faith.

So now you're advocating that there is just a gender category and you fill that in how you like, so bearded, penis intact Josephine gets through passport control without a glance because they have woman as their gender. Slightly butch Sue with her generous bosom and wide hips classified F in the sex category but no gender listed will be hauled aside for an intimate examination? Are you really serious? Surely this is a windup, or you've really lost the plot ??

I'm not asking you to believe in anything Rosie51 neither was Dave Allen. That's the point of the quote. Your god. Nothing to do with me . Your belief nothing to do with me. You can believe anything you like so can others.
As I said you can't check gender you can check sex. If you don't understand how authorities use the things they can check to control people that isn't my problem.

I don't want to have my life ruled by the sex I was born and have to produce evidence of that sex wherever I go.
You really are obsessed with being asked to prove your sex, and by having your genitals examined. Why would you need to? In all my life I have never been asked to prove my sex, and don't know anyone who has.

No one is asking you to. We are describing one of the many procedures which medical professionals undertake on newborns.

If it is a medical necessity I am sure anyone who is non-binary would agree to those medical staff who needed to know knowing but to the rest of you why should they tell you their sex? They choose to be non-binary.As the great advocates of gender non-conformity I would have thought you would have welcomed their position. It seems not.
It is strange that I have been accused of having fixed views on what women present as, and what butch means, but I'm the one saying I can't tell a transwoman from a natal woman and I recognise the right of someone to be non-binary, I don't want to have my life ruled by the sex I was born and have to produce evidence of that sex wherever I go. The only response to how will this work in everyday life? is a women's refuge, medical care or passports, so I gather it wouldn't work and noone will be identified just as female in the near future.

I wonder what his take would be, as I recall he wasn't a fan of bullsh*t.

I'm not letting anyone observe my genitals to check my sex, might be OK for newborns who aren't able to use their words but not OK for me

As an aside I loved Dave Allen.

VioletSky

I've had to fill out a lot of medical questionnaires recently (covid)

They didn't ask what sex I am, they asked:

"What gender were you assigned at birth“

And you know full well they are using gender to denote sex. I wish this assigned nonsense was stopped. Sex is observed and recorded. My niece is a midwife, I asked on what basis she 'assigned' sex and she said she observes the genitals. Otherwise when somebody said they were hoping for a girl this time she'd be able to override the penis and assign female.

Last post to trisher the quote didn't show
Because the appearance of people identifying as women is as varied as possible whereas a person who is of the female sex must have certain physical characteristics which might need to be checked.
As far as gods go I've always held to the position that you can believe what you wish. I always liked the Dave Allen goodbye- "And may your god go with you"

Yes I liked that Dave Allen farewell, but do you actually believe in their gods, because you're insisting we have to believe in people's gender faith.

So now you're advocating that there is just a gender category and you fill that in how you like, so bearded, penis intact Josephine gets through passport control without a glance because they have woman as their gender. Slightly butch Sue with her generous bosom and wide hips classified F in the sex category but no gender listed will be hauled aside for an intimate examination? Are you really serious? Surely this is a windup, or you've really lost the plot ??

Particularly at birth.

If it is medical information with regard to treatment they need to know your sex or the treatment they offer you could kill you.

If gender is about 'feelings', and 'presentation' how can anyone assign it to anyone else?

VioletSky

I've had to fill out a lot of medical questionnaires recently (covid)

They didn't ask what sex I am, they asked:

"What gender were you assigned at birth“

No one is assigned a gender at birth.

I've had to fill out a lot of medical questionnaires recently (covid)

They didn't ask what sex I am, they asked:

"What gender were you assigned at birth“

trisher

Galaxy

Because there are times when sex is important. So if we are in the street I couldnt care how they refer to themselves, knock yourself out, if accessing a womans refuge then non binary female are welcome, non binary males not so much.

FFS there is no such thing as a non-binary woman or man. There are women, men and non-binary people. Do you not realise how insulting you are being to non-binary people?

There are two sexes, precisely two. Male and female. There isn't a person on this planet that doesn't have a sex, even if they have a DSD. I thought there were at least 100 genders and growing day on day. You seem to want to limit these souls to a choice of only 3, bit draconian isn't that? I don't care what gender anybody thinks they are, where it counts just the binary of sex matters.

They have a sex trisher. However they describe themselves they have a sex. If you pretend otherwise in some circumstances you will cause them considerable harm.