Transgender people who start hormones as teenagers rather than adults 'have better mental health’

Rosie51

trisher

Rosie51

Passports should record sex. The interchangeable use of gender when it was regarded as a polite version of sex is causing these problems. Everyone has a sex, it's immutable. For those who would like a public declaration of their perceived gender that could be an extra box to be filled out if wished. Mine would be left blank. F in the sex box will suffice.

Now that might be interesting. At Passport control. "Excuse me, but you say you are female but you don't have any gender. I'm going to have to ask you to step into a side room and make sure you are the sex you claim. You look a bit butch to me."
You'd beter start a campaign now Rosie51 because the indications are that in common with most countries the term non-binary will be adopted eventually

Still it is fun watching people wriggle as they try to pretend gender has no place in their lives.

That is possibly the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long while. Nobody queries my passport at present with its F classification, why on earth would they query it because the additional gender ideology box wasn't filled in? So once again you're suggesting gender is stereotyped, because if I looked butch why would having sex and gender boxes matching be any different?
I don't need validating as a woman, a female because I am one. As for your earlier statement Some people don't believe the earth is a sphere doesn't mean it isn't. well that is scientifically proven so a rather stupid example don't you think? Some people believe in a god or gods, do you agree with all of them too? How about if they want to compel you to declare a belief in something you just don't believe in?

Because the appearance of people identifying as women is as varied as possible whereas a person who is of the female sex must have certain physical characteristics which might need to be checked.
As far as gods go I've always held to the position that you can believe what you wish. I always liked the Dave Allen goodbye- "And may your god go with you"

VioletSky

Does what genitals you have matter when you get on a plane? Surely you just need to look like your picture

Well exactly, but trisher thinks if I look butch and only have an F sex marker on my passport and nothing in the gender ideology box then passport control will whisk me off to look at my genitals lol Perhaps you can convince trisher

No I trust the people running refuges to be able to identify sex in the way they have done since refuges were established. Another suggestions would be to keep working on a culture where womens boundaries are respected, where men who attempt to access womens spaces are reminded of those boundaries.

Galaxy

Because there are times when sex is important. So if we are in the street I couldnt care how they refer to themselves, knock yourself out, if accessing a womans refuge then non binary female are welcome, non binary males not so much.

FFS there is no such thing as a non-binary woman or man. There are women, men and non-binary people. Do you not realise how insulting you are being to non-binary people?

trisher

Rosie51

Passports should record sex. The interchangeable use of gender when it was regarded as a polite version of sex is causing these problems. Everyone has a sex, it's immutable. For those who would like a public declaration of their perceived gender that could be an extra box to be filled out if wished. Mine would be left blank. F in the sex box will suffice.

Now that might be interesting. At Passport control. "Excuse me, but you say you are female but you don't have any gender. I'm going to have to ask you to step into a side room and make sure you are the sex you claim. You look a bit butch to me."
You'd beter start a campaign now Rosie51 because the indications are that in common with most countries the term non-binary will be adopted eventually

Still it is fun watching people wriggle as they try to pretend gender has no place in their lives.

That is possibly the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long while. Nobody queries my passport at present with its F classification, why on earth would they query it because the additional gender ideology box wasn't filled in? So once again you're suggesting gender is stereotyped, because if I looked butch why would having sex and gender boxes matching be any different?
I don't need validating as a woman, a female because I am one. As for your earlier statement Some people don't believe the earth is a sphere doesn't mean it isn't. well that is scientifically proven so a rather stupid example don't you think? Some people believe in a god or gods, do you agree with all of them too? How about if they want to compel you to declare a belief in something you just don't believe in?

Galaxy

Yes sex segregation is restricting freedom in certain areas of life. Absolutely. Just as I cant take a teenager to a mother and toddler group because there are restrictions with regard to that group. The teenagers freedom is restricted as he is not allowed to join the baby group. The 32 year old man cant join the under 8 football team. So yes his freedom is restricted in that sense. So yes in some circumstances men cant join spaces meant for females.

Of course there are certain areas Galaxy (isn't it funny how no one can or will tell me how it will work in everyday life?) where restrictions may be necessary. You tell a teenager by their size etc- so their appearance, but where there is a problem they have to carry ID. Like purchasing alcohol. Quite a few young looking small adults need to carry ID well into their 20s and even 30s. So what you are saying is you accept that anyone who looks slightly out of alignment with the way someone of a certain sex is supposed to look will always have to carry ID? You might be comfortable with that. I'm not.

Does what genitals you have matter when you get on a plane? Surely you just need to look like your picture

Because there are times when sex is important. So if we are in the street I couldnt care how they refer to themselves, knock yourself out, if accessing a womans refuge then non binary female are welcome, non binary males not so much.

Mollygo

That’s ridiculous trisher. I understand you want things to be tricky but why would they need to do that? You’re obsessed with ‘looking a bit butch’.
If you put F it means you are female, AHF ergo a woman without needing any further clarification. Surely you aren’t suggesting that TW would lie and say F? Most TW accept they are not F and would be very unhappy to think you are suggesting they would lie.

But non-binary people don't want you to know Mollygo why would you stop that by insisting they have to declare their sex and not allow them to use the genderless term non-binary which extends to never being "he" or "she' but always "they"? Nothing to do with transwomen by the way, even though it upsets your obsession.

Yes sex segregation is restricting freedom in certain areas of life. Absolutely. Just as I cant take a teenager to a mother and toddler group because there are restrictions with regard to that group. The teenagers freedom is restricted as he is not allowed to join the baby group. The 32 year old man cant join the under 8 football team. So yes his freedom is restricted in that sense. So yes in some circumstances men cant join spaces meant for females.

That’s ridiculous trisher. I understand you want things to be tricky but why would they need to do that? You’re obsessed with ‘looking a bit butch’.
If you put F it means you are female, AHF ergo a woman without needing any further clarification. Surely you aren’t suggesting that TW would lie and say F? Most TW accept they are not F and would be very unhappy to think you are suggesting they would lie.

Galaxy

Oh God. I dont have a gender identity. I think by the descriptors used most people are non binary. Nobody I know fits nearly into gender stereotypes.

I really can't believe that someone who thinks this believes they can tell a transwoman from a natal woman just by looking.

I see so you don't believe people who choose to be non-binary. You simply believe that they are just part of some amorphous group, which you seem to want to belong to, although you insist they must reveal their sex on passports and apparently have no right to conceal this.
Of course no one fits into gender stereotypes which is precisely why trying to delineate people by sex in every day life can only be achieved through restricting freedoms.

Oh God. I dont have a gender identity. I think by the descriptors used most people are non binary. Nobody I know fits nearly into gender stereotypes.

Galaxy

What are you talking about. Why would anyone care if my gender identity (that I dont have) matched my sex.

Do you really imagine that decisions taken at passport control are about what anyone cares about and not simply exercising as much control as possible over entrance to a country?

*Galaxy I gather from these posts that you identify as a non-binary woman. Isn't that trying to bat for both teams?

What are you talking about. Why would anyone care if my gender identity (that I dont have) matched my sex.

I dont think that's impolite. I do think the concept of an inner gender is a belief system. There are lots of belief systems that I dont subscribe to, this doesnt necessarily mean that they are bad things, just that I dont believe in them.

Rosie51

Passports should record sex. The interchangeable use of gender when it was regarded as a polite version of sex is causing these problems. Everyone has a sex, it's immutable. For those who would like a public declaration of their perceived gender that could be an extra box to be filled out if wished. Mine would be left blank. F in the sex box will suffice.

Now that might be interesting. At Passport control. "Excuse me, but you say you are female but you don't have any gender. I'm going to have to ask you to step into a side room and make sure you are the sex you claim. You look a bit butch to me."
You'd beter start a campaign now Rosie51 because the indications are that in common with most countries the term non-binary will be adopted eventually

Still it is fun watching people wriggle as they try to pretend gender has no place in their lives.

Galaxy

Yes it's very much a belief system. With all that entails.

There is no need to say that is there, I'm just being polite enough to allow for our different views rather than saying "I think this so that's how it is/should be".

It's being open minded

Yes it's very much a belief system. With all that entails.

Er no because I think passports should record sex.

Rosie51

Passports should record sex. The interchangeable use of gender when it was regarded as a polite version of sex is causing these problems. Everyone has a sex, it's immutable. For those who would like a public declaration of their perceived gender that could be an extra box to be filled out if wished. Mine would be left blank. F in the sex box will suffice.

That seems like a sensible solution. An extra box for public declaration of perceived gender for those who wish it would cover all eventualities.

Passports should record sex. The interchangeable use of gender when it was regarded as a polite version of sex is causing these problems. Everyone has a sex, it's immutable. For those who would like a public declaration of their perceived gender that could be an extra box to be filled out if wished. Mine would be left blank. F in the sex box will suffice.

Galaxy

Do you understand how authoritarian you sound. I am non binary as is everyone I know. Unless you are saying I fit into the range of stereotypes of that defines woman.

That's great Galaxy are you all involved in the actions to get non-binary recognised and used on passports in the UK?