Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

Thanks for posting all of that. I do not know what to think about this if I’m honest. If I were going into hospital I’m not sure that I’d raise all of this beforehand. Then, I do not have the insight or knowledge this patient has due to her career. It is certainly an insight into changing times and what we must all be aware of.

Doodledog You seem to be ignoring the fact that a transexual surgeon working at Princess Grace Hospital has been the target of some really nasty abuse and could have been the real reason this case has been blown out of all proportion.

There are now 15 pages on GN about something which, in context, was possibly a minor breach of procedures. The orchestrator in this case knew damn well that it would stir people up.

Ms Steele had no objection to being treated by males, only trans people.

Thank you for that email information growstuff which makes clear that an intimate examination WAS indeed part of the initial assessment.

growstuff

Doodledog You seem to be ignoring the fact that a transexual surgeon working at Princess Grace Hospital has been the target of some really nasty abuse and could have been the real reason this case has been blown out of all proportion.

There are now 15 pages on GN about something which, in context, was possibly a minor breach of procedures. The orchestrator in this case knew damn well that it would stir people up.

I’m really not.

I’m working, so haven’t got time just now to read emails or anything to do with the case, which in any case is under investigation, so have restricted my points to the general - ie whether, hypothetically, women have the right to know if the person examining them is male, and if so, does she have a right to refuse without having to be cross-examined about her motives.

Growstuff

I keep telling people these conversations are causing real world issues but people are only interested if it's a trans person behind it

No one has claimed otherwise growstuff. I was quite clearly answering Doodle's question.

Doodledog

Fleurpepper, I think I can see the point you are getting at, but your analogy doesn’t work.

Someone of mixed race is, if you buy into the ideology of Apartheid, part white and part black. Nobody is part male and part female, so there is no such thing as mixed sex. As has been pointed out, so-called ‘Intersex’ is not about being ‘mixed’ - people have either male or female gametes, so that would be impossible.

‘Passing’ as female may be possible for a very few transwomen, but that doesn’t alter the fact that if women should be allowed the choice not to be intimately touched by a man, that choice applies to them, too. There are so many occupations that transwomen could choose that would have no doors barred, and so few that involve intimate touching or very personal conversations about sexual matters. Quite why the conversation has to keep coming back to those who have chosen a career that brings these issues to the fore when it is very obvious that they will do so at some point makes no sense to me.

My point, is about tolerance and acceptance versus fear and disgust- from one group of people to another, which later seem incredible and vile. Jews and nazis, blacks or mixed race with Apartheid, etc. and that the discrimination against those groups is very muc influenced by the ideology or even (dare I say it) the political or cultural context at the time. And even Catholics and divorce, or gays. And whicl a generation later, seems unbelievable, incredible, so so wrong and bizarre.

The same will happen with transgender with the next generation- and they will find such reactions as ... as said, beyond belief and comprehension.

Thank you growstuff for the copy of e-mails and the info about the transgender consultant at the hospital. Their reaction and reply was spot on. Bravo.

growstuff

Smileless2012

Yes, if the doctor is male but presenting as female a chaperone should be present.

Who claimed otherwise?

Why any more so than is the doctor is male, presenting as male?????

growstuff, thank you so much for this. The key to the whole thing. They have a duty to protect their staff and reacted entirely correctly in this context

''You seem to be ignoring the fact that a transexual surgeon working at Princess Grace Hospital has been the target of some really nasty abuse and could have been the real reason this case has been blown out of all proportion.''

I don't understand your post @ 17.21 Fleur.

I understood Fleur fine

Well anyone can say what will happen in the future, but nobody can possibly know, unless they are talking about a scientific phenomenon.

Racism is so often used as a false equivalence in these discussions. It is unbelievably tiresome to have to go over it again, but it is not the same thing. Yes, prejudice is behind racism, and prejudice is behind transphobia, but being concerned about the way in which women's safety and rights are being eroded is not transphobia. It is not even possible to see parallels between white people not wanting to lose their dominance by granting rights to black people and women not wanting to concede our safety, privacy and dignity to men. Women are not the dominant sex in our patriarchal society.

Rape is a real threat. Sexism and discrimination are rampant. There is a gender pay gap in most (if not all) professions. Why is it wrong to try to protect ourselves from those things, and to point out that if men can access all female spaces we will no longer have anywhere to go to undress or when we are otherwise vulnerable. Why is it wrong to want to have statistics correctly classified so that pay gaps and other results of misogyny are properly measured?

Citing historical racism and homophobia is lazy and dismisses the real concerns held by many women in a disrespectful way that is not just a product of historical sexism - it is the sort of sexism and misogyny that still exists today.

But you only believe that FP because it is what you believe, possibly because of your personal circumstances.

The discrimination against females by those trans who see themselves as having rights that override those of females, is quite frightening, and more so because their behaviour is supported by females who put male rights before those of females. (TAF)

If there is growing feeling against all trans,

it has resulted and grown from the

actions of the TAF, who refuse to accept

blame for the problems they have caused

and indeed continue to cause.

It is the most appalling aspect of this and won't improve whilst TAF persist in supporting discrimination against females.

And yet I’m sure I will continue to read posts which deny this.

Because blaming a whole demographic for the actions of individuals within that demographic is discrimination

I wouldn't blame all GC feminists for those who sent nasty messages to a trans surgeon.

I point all my disgust and disdain at the people actually responsible and anyone who thinks that saying nasty things too or about trans people is acceptable

VioletSky

Because blaming a whole demographic for the actions of individuals within that demographic is discrimination

I wouldn't blame all GC feminists for those who sent nasty messages to a trans surgeon.

I point all my disgust and disdain at the people actually responsible and anyone who thinks that saying nasty things too or about trans people is acceptable

Blaming a whole demographic for the actions of individuals within that demographic is generalisation, not discrimination.

Generalisations can lead to stereotyping, which takes things a step further and attaches other attributes to the group whether they deserve them or not.

In turn, stereotyping can lead to prejudice when people make assumptions about the likely actions of the group concerned - pre-judging them, if you like.

It is only if the prejudice leads to expectation of negative behaviour that discrimination might come in, and then only if members of the group are treated in a particular (usually negative) way that is not used for those outside of that group.

Someone saying on a discussion board that TRAs do trans people no favours is not discriminating at all. They may be generalising about TRAs, but if the term 'Trans Rights Activists' is being correctly used, that is probably unlikely. Activists are, by definition, active, and the term wouldn't be used about 'ordinary' transpeople.

Saying that the actions of TRAs gives 'ordinary' transpeople a bad name is simply acknowledging that there are those who will make assumptions about all transpeople, and/or stereotype and pre-judge them. There are very few ways that anyone other than policy makers can discriminate against transpeople, as they are (rightly) protected in law.

Standing up for women's rights is neither generalising, stereotyping, prejudiced nor discriminatory. It is what feminists have done for generations, and will continue to do for as long as there are those (male or female) who try to diminish them.

'Saying nasty things' is not against the law. I prefer politeness myself, but telling women to speak nicely has been used to silence us for centuries, and hasn't really worked, has it?

So let's get this clear. This was not a woman who feared being treated by males.
This was not a woman who had been abused.
This was a woman who was willing to accept male doctors but not male nurses or transwomen nurses.
So not only does she discriminate on the grounds of sex, she narrows that discrimination by profession.
How can that be justified?
It is perfectly obvious of course why she would accept male doctors- otherwise her operation could not happen.
I wonder why she imagines a transwoman is more likely to abuse her than any man?

We'll never know, will we, as she is not answerable to any of us.

I will read the emails tomorrow if I get my work finished, but for now I am still concentrating on the principles rather than the detail of this case, as the important bit is still under investigation.

Prejudice is thinking being biased against someone.

Discrimination is action in many forms that impacts someone's life negatively.

Discrimination is also exercising privilege by putting a minority groups needs below a majority

I know exactly what words I'm using thanks

My excellent GP was a transgender woman and I do not recall hearing of a female having any concerns about their safety/wellbeing in her care. This was 30+years ago.

Smileless2012

I don't understand your post @ 17.21 Fleur.

sorry, been at choir.

Typo! I meant

Why any more so than if (not is) the doctor is male, presenting as male?????

Fleurpepper I am afraid your information about those with dsds is a bit dated.
I am also interested if you consider the equality act (which allows the provision of single sex services) a form of apartheid.
We dont know what will happen in the future that is true. It may be all sweetness and light or the numbers of detransitioners may keep increasing, along with the legal actions against places like the tavistock. Many European countries are backing away quite quickly from puberty blockers and social affirmation. So no we dont know which way it will go.

Thanks Fleur . To clarify, a female being examined by a male nurse or doctor presenting as male and one who identifies/presents as female, should have a chaperone.

Hope you enjoyed your choir practice. I'll miss mine for the next two weeks as we're away.

Doodledog

We'll never know, will we, as she is not answerable to any of us.

I will read the emails tomorrow if I get my work finished, but for now I am still concentrating on the principles rather than the detail of this case, as the important bit is still under investigation.

There aren't really any principles, apart from in the minds of people who have chosen to weaponise it for an agenda. Controversy has been manufactured.

Fleurpepper

growstuff, thank you so much for this. The key to the whole thing. They have a duty to protect their staff and reacted entirely correctly in this context

''You seem to be ignoring the fact that a transexual surgeon working at Princess Grace Hospital has been the target of some really nasty abuse and could have been the real reason this case has been blown out of all proportion.''

The media campaign was orchestrated by somebody who is a well-known anti gay, anti trans campaigner.