Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

Doodledog

*The only issue is that somebody entered a room while the patient was filling out forms. That should be dealt with by an internal enquiry about following procedures.*

Which is what I am saying. If there was more going on than form-filling, and if the woman had asked for single-sex only and the intruder was male (however they felt inside) then there is, arguably, a case to answer.

However, the discussion about the case raises the points I made earlier, about whether a woman has a right to ask for female staff to treat her, or to touch her intimately, or to have a chaperone if a male-bodied person examines her, whether or not that person identifies as female. And if so, does she have to explain the reasons for her request?

No, it doesn't raise that point. She didn't ask for single sex care at the beginning and even after her demands, she was prepared to accept male doctors. Originally, she was more concerned about not filling in a form with gender pronouns. I've been through this recently and it was optional.

Th hospital hasn't disputed that she shouldn't have single-sex care, but says that it couldn't provide it in ICU, which is what she was demanding. There was never any question of having any intimate examination conducted by a male and I don't think any hospital would agree to one without a female chaperone.

No, she doesn't need to explain the reason for her request. The hospital couldn't physically provide single-sex ICU accommodation, so it just couldn't provide what she demanded. It doesn't matter what her reason was - the hospital couldn't provide it.

FarNorth

Are you asking me about a mixed race child Fleurpepper?
If so, what exactly is your question and how is mixed race relevant to trans?

Some are seen/perceived as such. Others are not. My grandchildren are mixed race, hugely so- but it does not show. Same happens with transgender people.

My mind was transported to Apartheid in South Africa in the late 40s. People were classed according to the skin tone, nose or hair texture. Some with the same genes 'passed' as white, others with the same genetic mix, from the same family, just happened to be a bit darker, or have thicker lips, or frizzy hair, and were classed differently. The point I am making is that they were all 'mixed race' to the same extent- but for some it was not an issue, because it did not 'show'. You may think it is different to the perception of transgender. If you had lived in SA during the Apartheid regime, you would not think so. It was massively important, and decided for ever what you could do or not do in life. My cousin became a nurse- and as far as the white patients at the white hospital, she would have been a criminal for even touching them.

The only issue is that somebody entered a room while the patient was filling out forms. That should be dealt with by an internal enquiry about following procedures.

Which is what I am saying. If there was more going on than form-filling, and if the woman had asked for single-sex only and the intruder was male (however they felt inside) then there is, arguably, a case to answer.

However, the discussion about the case raises the points I made earlier, about whether a woman has a right to ask for female staff to treat her, or to touch her intimately, or to have a chaperone if a male-bodied person examines her, whether or not that person identifies as female. And if so, does she have to explain the reasons for her request?

FarNorth

If that's the only problem, why did the hospital cancel the operation citing the patient's beliefs?

The woman had written an aggressive letter threatening legal action. She demanded that she have single-sex care after her operation, but the hospital couldn't provide it. She would need time in ICU after the op, but the hospital doesn't have single-sex ICU facilities. The hospital administrators contacted her consultant and established that the op wasn't critical and suggested she find another hospital. They wrote that they couldn't guarantee her safety, as she felt so strongly about single-sex care.

Why anyone would ever think aliems would be interested in what a human beings breakfast looks like digested is beyond me anyway

Fleurpepper exactly

If people cannot even bring themselves to put respectful language in a sentence or use a preferred pronoun they re undoubtedly part of the problem

The sensible middle will get on with making sure everyone has their rights and needs met

Till the next issue

Let's hope friendly aliens don't turn up next it will be all "go back to your own planet, taking all our jobs and benefits, being all green and what if they probe me!!!111"

If that's the only problem, why did the hospital cancel the operation citing the patient's beliefs?

Fleurpepper

VioletSky

Yup

Only interested in creating issues

Seems to me the issues were created by the patient, and not the nurse, no?

Let's see what the enquiry reports back.

The only issue is that somebody entered a room while the patient was filling out forms. That should be dealt with by an internal enquiry about following procedures.

There is no Trump administration.

Of course there should not be cosmetic surgery on babies and young children.

People with Differences of Sexual Development are not the ones claiming to be trans.

Much of the discussion on here is irrelevant to the case, but the orchestrator of the controversy knew that.

Glorianny I don't always agree with you, but in this case, I do.

To be fair to the patient, I think the case has been weaponised by somebody with very strong transphobic views, who is also social media savvy.

Are you asking me about a mixed race child Fleurpepper?
If so, what exactly is your question and how is mixed race relevant to trans?

For info

Myth 1: Everybody is either born male or female

People often assume that the world is divided neatly into two groups of people, male and female, and that everyone’s biological and genetic characteristics fit into one of these two categories.

But this is not always the case. There are millions of people around the world who have sexual characteristics that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies. Many, though not all, of these people identify as intersex.

Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural variations that affect genitals, gonads, hormones, chromosomes or reproductive organs. Sometimes these characteristics are visible at birth, sometimes they appear at puberty, and sometimes they are not physically apparent at all.
Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare

According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair.

Despite this, the term intersex is still widely misunderstood, and intersex people are massively underrepresented. This week a leaked memo from the Trump administration suggested that the US government is working towards new definitions of sex and gender, dividing them into “unchangeable” categories of male and female.

This would completely deny the existence of transgender and intersex people, with dangerous implications for human rights in the US and beyond.
Myth 3: Being intersex is a condition that needs to be corrected

Many intersex children undergo surgery in an effort to ‘normalise’ them – even though these interventions are often invasive, irreversible, and not performed for emergency reasons.

Although doctors and parents may be well meaning, the reality is that the procedures performed on intersex children can cause major problems, including infertility, pain, incontinence and lifelong psychological suffering. All this just to make children conform to society’s idea of what a girl or a boy ‘should’ look like.

They are not transgender either.

People with DSDs are not the ones claiming to be trans.

VioletSky

Yup

Only interested in creating issues

Seems to me the issues were created by the patient, and not the nurse, no?

Let's see what the enquiry reports back.

Would you say the same about a mixed race child?

Actually, you are wrong, many children are born without clear sexual identity, and somewhere in between. In the old days, not that long ago, the decision was usually made to cut off any bit that seemed extra, and make the decision to classify as female.

Our GP's daughter was one such child. She suffered terribly later and has become spent her whole life helping similar children and fight for their right to choose.

Why should we all contort ourselves to respect people's wishes to be who they want to be? Easy answer for me.

Yup

Only interested in creating issues

Sex is observed at birth, not assigned.

A lot of non-trans people object to the phrase 'assigned female / male at birth'.

Why should we all contort ourselves to fit in with what some trans people prefer when everyone knows what the words female & male mean?

VioletSky

The actions of one do not reflect badly on any demographic they belong too.

Thinking that is the case is the literal bread and butter of discrimination.

Again

Who agrees?

Mollygo

growstuff

It is known that a fully transitioned surgeon works at the hospital. The surgeon is very well respected and is now being targeted on social media, despite being known as a woman for 27 years.

So once again the stupid actions of one TW are causing problems for other trans.

Well honestly blaming someone who may or may not have been trans for the abuse of another trans person really is the limit.
If people hold deep seated and earnest beliefs about something that unnecessarily impacts, and causes damage to other people they should at least acknowledge that damage is possible.

You have no idea if a trans person is involved.

All you know is that someone entered a room and that a woman, who holds views you find acceptable, subsequently decided this was a transwoman. As a result another transwoman has been abused and targeted on social media. None of this is the fault of transwomen. It is the fault of those who insist, no matter what the evidence, that discriminating against transwomen is a legitimate and desirable policy, when actually all it does is encourage abuse.
At least own the damage which may be caused..

Back to page 2?

Sure

I may be wrong but I don't think trans people are opposed to the phrase "assigned male/female at birth"

So politely asking to see a doctor or nurse that way might be the way forward

Or other phrasing that doesn't involve refusing pronouns, being rude and demanding or otherwise being prejudice to trans people only

Exactly what I have been saying. How would she have known???

Drag Queens are not trans! And some transgender people do not look it at all. And some real women do look a bit 'different' for umpteen reasons. It is all nonsense.

I'd say let's leave it for now- and await the results of the investigations and the FACTS.

Growstuff, I evidently don’t know as much as you do about this case, but as a general rule, how can it be anti trans to ask for female only support when vulnerable, for female safe spaces or for female only sports competitions. That would be discrimination against females and that’s unacceptable.
Yet it’s only a small number of trans and fans who insist on doing this and thus damaging the image of all trans.

Ok. Whatever happened in this particular case, the principle remains - do women have a right to ask for single sex accommodation and/or for only female staff to touch them intimately? Usually there is a chaperone present when a male staff member examines a female patient. If a male staff member says he identifies as female should that still happen?

(question to anyone with an opinion - not aimed at anyone in particular)

VioletSky

The actions of one do not reflect badly on any demographic they belong too.

Thinking that is the case is the literal bread and butter of discrimination.

Especially as it's not known if the person was "one of them". It was only what the patient imagined and claimed.