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Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

(846 Posts)
FarNorth Mon 31-Oct-22 15:01:30

Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for a woman who requested female-only staff and would not accept a transwoman nurse as female.

After many, many complaints from individuals HCA Healthcare UK (owner of Princess Grace Hospital) has now offered the surgery involving female-only staff, at its Wellington Hospital in London on October 31 .

mobile.twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1587082103086276609

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 11:10:52

Fleurpepper

''I never suggested your niece was a man Are you saying your niece doesn’t know what a male is ? However your niece has lived or is portrayed, change of sex is impossible. ''

you are suggesting exactly that. She was born a male, changed aged 17, and has been living it since. She will tell you that is is a woman, and is living it every day. And no-one would ever know. She would not see it as deceipt, at all. Honestly.

No one has the right to define what a woman is to your neice.

Women do not have the right to define what a woman is to each other either

Its all backwards thinking and very sexist

Fleurpepper Tue 01-Nov-22 11:08:22

My point, again- is that in her case it does not show- no-one would ever know. In the case of my other trans friend- who also had full reversal at a later stage- it does show. Size, voice, hands- even though she has a full had of natural long hair and does not wear heavy make-up.

Smileless2012 Tue 01-Nov-22 11:08:06

I agree Molly. I have never asked to be treated by females only but if I did, and was told that would be the case, it would be wrong for a trans nurse or doctor to be giving me treatment.

It wouldn't matter if the nurse or doctor concerned didn't look trans and I would have no way of knowing.

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 11:07:54

Erm...

If women want to cover their hair or refuse treatment from someone that is their choice.

Would it be a choice they made without growing up in a strict family? Possibly not.

When any religious or cultural practise puts a woman at risk of harm I'm not OK with it.

Honor based abuse is a serious issue and I'm not changing my definition of abuse to be inclusive to religion.

Religion needs to change to empower and protect women's rights too or its just a rather flimsy excuse to abuse women.

Fleurpepper Tue 01-Nov-22 11:04:50

''I never suggested your niece was a man Are you saying your niece doesn’t know what a male is ? However your niece has lived or is portrayed, change of sex is impossible. ''

you are suggesting exactly that. She was born a male, changed aged 17, and has been living it since. She will tell you that is is a woman, and is living it every day. And no-one would ever know. She would not see it as deceipt, at all. Honestly.

Doodledog Tue 01-Nov-22 10:56:28

VS. Nobody, but nobody is arguing that FGM is ok. Hair covering is not ok of it is enforced, but I know women who want to do it and wouldn't presume to tell them that I know their motives better than they do.

Susie Had the hospital agreed before he went in that no women would treat him?

If not, he was a fool to himself. But if, as appears to be true in the case we are (indirectly) discussing, they had taken his money on the understanding that they would provide him with male staff, then he would have a right to complain.

Susie42 Tue 01-Nov-22 10:45:49

A neighbour refused to be treated by female staff when he was in hospital and was extremely rude to all the staff. His condition took much longer to improve because of his refusing treatment.

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 10:43:52

Honor based abuse

Is abuse

Abuse is abuse

I'm never ever going to be OK with abuse and if someone may not get treatment because of any religious or cultural norm they have been brainwashed to follow or are too frightened by family and peers not to follow even if that causes them harm that is abuse.

Mollygo Tue 01-Nov-22 10:43:34

Fleurpepper

Mollygo
but honestly, she wouldn't have been asked.
Honestly is a strange word to use for deceit.

But honestly your niece would have known. That says you, and she think it’s OK to choose which dishonesty is OK and which isn’t.
Not really much more to say about that.
Oh dear...

it would have never entered her mind- she does not know she is a man, because she has chosen to be a woman, and has been for 15 years, very happily and succesfully. She would have never seen it as deceit, at all- and neither would anyone at the hsopital. And no-one would have ever known.

I never suggested your niece was a man Are you saying your niece doesn’t know what a male is ? However your niece has lived or is portrayed, change of sex is impossible.
If your niece feels it is right to go where a female has been requested, it’s dishonesty, whichever way you dress it up.

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 10:35:50

And the law should back me up on this because FGM is illegal in this country and so is forced marriage.

I'm not going to pick and choose religious or cultural practice to support my argument when it is something I don't agree with and women are harmed by it.

That's gross

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 10:33:06

And uncovering their hair is women asserting the right to say what happens to their own bodies.

Religion or culture should not trump women's rights or needs.

Especially if a woman wants to survive and anyone around her states she can't receive treatment because of religion or will suffer in any way if she does.

I've lived in a refuge.

There was a large proportion of women there who had been disowned by family for not following practice

They matter too and I won't tell women they should risk their own lives for outdated practice

Especially when there are places in all religions where this is now not enforced but people still worship and are welcomed

Doodledog Tue 01-Nov-22 10:26:57

Yet again, a woman asks for something and her motives, her background, even whether she is telling the truth are questioned. It's depressing.

We don't know the facts of this case (and I hope the investigation happens quickly) but the bare bones of what happened seem to be that a patient asked a private hospital to ensure that she would be treated in a female environment, or at least that the staff treating her would be female. She paid her money on that basis, so a contract was in place, yet her wishes were disrespected.

The case was picked up by the media, and the response is to jump to the conclusion that the woman was wrong to ask in the first place, that she must be prejudiced at best and racist at worst (??) that she may well be lying about her motives (implying that the general public has a right to question her motives) and the sympathy goes straight to the male-bodied nurse who decided to ignore the wishes that the patient had requested and paid for.

The point, which stands despite the misogynist attempts to discredit the woman and make assumptions about her motives, is that she asked for something that the hospital agreed to (and either took or was prepared to take her money for providing), but her wishes were over-ruled. The hospital clearly didn't consider her wishes unreasonable - if they had they needn't have agreed to them.

I mean- I don't get it. I have never had any doubt about my sexuality, even if I grew up with boys and was a bit of a tom boy. But female I am, through and through.
Fleurpepper, your sexuality and the games you played as a child are unconnected. As is the fact that you had male relatives or friends. You are female through and through because you have female gametes. If you didn't, you would be male. There is no in-between.

As to whether someone would 'get away with' posing as a member of the opposite sex if they looked more 'natural' in the role - well yes, they probably would. But that is the point! Transwomen are not women. They are transwomen. The vast majority do not pose a threat to women (or men for that matter). But unless you believe that women should have no right to decide for themselves who touches them and no right to refuse to allow men to touch them intimately that differentiation is fundamental. Your niece can go about her lawful business as she pleases, but she is not a woman, as she was born with male gametes. She can pursue the vast majority of professions, but care needs to be taken when it comes to those few that involve intimate contact with women when they are vulnerable. Not all women will be concerned about contact with male-bodied people, which is fine, but those who are should have their wishes respected. Surely someone who finds so-called 'gender' norms important enough to want to change their whole life because of how they 'feel' will understand that so do many women, and that some of those women will not want intimate contact with male-bodied people they don't know? And that their reasons for this are not for others to question. They feel as they do, and that should be enough.

Oh, and can we please stop generalisations about lesbians? Lesbianism is about sexuality, and as such lesbians are as different from one another as straight people, gay men or any other group. It really doesn't matter if any poster is gay, straight, bi or anything else - we can all use speak for ourselves when it comes to sexuality. Trying to play trump cards is pointless.

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 10:26:45

I'm not respectful of any idea that harms women no.

Lathyrus Tue 01-Nov-22 10:22:22

No that is not respectful and “outdated practices” is nothing more than negative language based on your own cultural Norns and value judgements.

Violence against women in Iran has nothing to do female concepts of privacy and the right to say what will happen to their own bodies.

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 10:17:38

We have women in Iran being murdered for daring to show their hair and the argument is religious or cultural reasons may prevent someone getting treatment.

Not acceptable

Hospitals are there to save our lives or prevent long term debilitating or mutilating injury and if the right gender staff aren't available it's not OK to argue that's the hospitals fault.

If a woman's life is in danger the argument should be that that woman should get the treatment from the first qualified person available.

If we have 2 ambulances, one with male staff and one with female and the operator has to swap them between incidents meaning both must travel 40 miles instead of 5, then that could be two lives lost.

I am respectful of religion and cultural things but outdated practices like that nd others aren't acceptable and are harming women.

Lathyrus Tue 01-Nov-22 10:13:45

I think Fleur that if I was having an intimate assessment and somebody walked randomly into the room, hung about for a short time and then left without any indication of why they should be there, I’d be asking questions about who they were and why they were there.

It would seem very odd to me.

Fleurpepper Tue 01-Nov-22 10:09:28

Lathyrus

So is it incidents of this kind shouldn’t be investigated or incidents of this kind shouldn’t be investigated because the member of staff was thought to be trans.

I can’t see why anyone would think this shouldn’t be nvestigated unless they had some other agenda.

Well yes, investigate, why not?

But I'd turn your last comment on its head - I can't think anyone would think it has to be made such a fuss of, unless thaty had a very specific agenda?

Lathyrus Tue 01-Nov-22 10:08:02

VioletSky

Lathyrus I'm just not engaging in arguments and personal comments thanks

Nothing personal.

Only commenting on the things you’ve posted.

Caleo Tue 01-Nov-22 10:06:29

Is it still the done thing for a woman patient to request a woman chaperone in any hands-on, unclothed, treatment or examination if she feels she needs one?

VioletSky Tue 01-Nov-22 10:05:58

Lathyrus I'm just not engaging in arguments and personal comments thanks

Glorianny Tue 01-Nov-22 10:05:22

Beware women if you look a little different. If you are wearing a wig because of hair loss and have pencilled in your eyebrows. If you have big feet. If you are tall. If you have strong (a bit masculine) features. If you have short hair or have shaved your head. If you have tatts. If you body build or play sports which build muscle.If you have any of these features be careful which door you open in a hospital, because there might be someone behind it who will decide you are a man.

Lathyrus Tue 01-Nov-22 10:00:30

So is it incidents of this kind shouldn’t be investigated or incidents of this kind shouldn’t be investigated because the member of staff was thought to be trans.

I can’t see why anyone would think this shouldn’t be nvestigated unless they had some other agenda.

Caleo Tue 01-Nov-22 09:59:27

Did she demand female doctors?

Lathyrus Tue 01-Nov-22 09:57:29

Fleurpepper

''All in the name of trans right?'

the only person who has flagged this up, very intentionally and with a huge agenda, is the woman patient, not the trans nurse, who was the one discriminated against, it seems.

That’s why I put a question mark.

Why have people gone down these routes when the whole point is that a member of staff, whoever they were, acted improperly, distressed a patient and the incident needs to be investigated.

And yet people have dragged in all other kinds of stuff and one poster at least,doesn’t even agree with that. She said an absolute no to investigation.

Fleurpepper Tue 01-Nov-22 09:51:57

''All in the name of trans right?'

the only person who has flagged this up, very intentionally and with a huge agenda, is the woman patient, not the trans nurse, who was the one discriminated against, it seems.