Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

As long as women are willing to speak out on this matter then politicians will have to listen, we make up a lot of the electorate.

That biological men aren't women, and can't change sex is just too complex for their addled brains.

People such as India Willoughby are acting from an initial position of "I Want!!!".
They then come up with ever more ridiculous attempts to justify their Want .

I used to read Indias Twitter as I like to read a range of views on this issue, trying to avoid the confirmation bubbles, but the well racism and misogyny just became impossible to me.

VioletSky

Doodledog

Someone without true gender dysphoria abusing the rights of others to attack women is just a male predator so yes it does matter. An offender will still offend by other means if that is their goal.

But someone with true gender dysphoria abusing the rights of others to attack women is A ok?

This makes absolutely no sense. I have sympathy with people who have gender dysphoria, but hadn't really considered that people might fake it. I suppose people do what people can do, but that's a new one on me.

Anyway, if memory serves, the question about genuine GD was asked with reference to the law, and the fact remains that laws are about actions, not 'feelings'. There can't be two people charged with the same offence and treated differently because one says he has feelings that differ from the other's, so whether GD is real or faked is irrelevant, really - it is not a defence in law.

Doodledog I didn't get past your second paragraph because frankly it's disgusting

I absolutely know you don't think I think that and I know you know I am a survivor and my hatred for abuse of women and children as we have discussed it on different threads.

I feel tainted and dirty after the last few comments so thank you for that guys.

Self reflection and personal growth is a wonderful thing

Sleep well

Of course I don't believe it, and as you said, you know that.

It was a question (hence the question mark) as it is the obvious extension of your comments calling into question the credibility of people's claims to have dysphoria. You also said yourself that anyone without true GD is just another attacker.
I haven't brought up the idea that people might fake it - as I said, I hadn't even considered the possibility until you mentioned it, and still think it's a stretch.

Maybe if you stop reading when you come across an idea you don't agree with, even when it is one you indirectly expressed yourself, that explains why there are so many misunderstandings in your posts.

volver

Replace the word "trans" with "Jewish."

Still feeling you have a supportable position?

You didn’t make it clear in your post that you were referencing one comment by another poster.

I wonder why you chose Jewish?

I still don’t feel easy about where that came from.

You didn’t make it clear in your post that you were referencing one comment by another poster.

It was the post right above mine. I expected people would work that out.

Jewish. Black. Scottish. Brown eyed. Choose what you prefer.

I am seriously offended by people who think I'm racist, even subconsciously racist.

Right now, this forum's not for me. Few days off I think.

I still don’t feel easy about where that came from.

Nor do I, Lathyrus. It's a non-sequitur for a start, is dangerously close to Godwin's Law, and is using centuries of anti-semitism and actual discrimination very distastefully to try to score points in an argument.

Firstly, there is no correlation between anti-semitism and concern about women's rights being eroded, and our very existence as a sex-class being called into question. None at all.

Secondly, however dubious, an attempt to link such concerns to anti-semitism is, insofar as the analogy holds, suggesting that those who hold them are transphobic, and by extension have murderous intent towards transpeople, which is not only ridiculous but offensive.

Thirdly, questioning the biologically impossible assertion that TWAW is not transphobia in any case.

*volver
I am seriously offended by people who think I'm racist, even subconsciously racist.
Right now, this forum's not for me. Few days off I think.*

I'm sorry you feel like this volver, as I've always enjoyed reading your posts. I don't understand why people think you're a racist, and I can appreciate you being upset by the thought. It's sometimes difficult to discuss issues without other posters going off on one.
Please come back.

And for the record, none of the above is suggesting that volver is racist, as I am 100% certain that she is aware.

It is suggesting that she used very dubious and lazy sophistry to try to score points, and the pretence that pointing this out is accusing her of racism is further evidence of her desperation to 'win' this debate.

It will never be won by either side. Transwomen are not women, and no amount of rhetoric will change that. But more importantly, it is not a game, so can't be won or lost. Women's rights are at stake, and innocent transpeople are being caught in the crossfire.

Jane71

It is volver who is saying that people are saying she is racist, not posters themselves. It is ironic that, as someone claiming to be concerned about media manipulation, she is clearly making an attempt at using such techniques herself.

volver

No one can say that some transpeople/jewish/ginger haired people behave badly and that spoils it for all the transpeople/jews/ginger haired people.

It is blaming people who can be described by a particular adjective for the bad behaviour of other people who can be described with the same adjective. That, by definition, is discrimination.

Yes it is

Blaming all women for the shamefull behaviour of a few would be discrimination.

Especially when the few know exactly what they are doing and don't care who gets hurt

VioletSky

volver

No one can say that some transpeople/jewish/ginger haired people behave badly and that spoils it for all the transpeople/jews/ginger haired people.

It is blaming people who can be described by a particular adjective for the bad behaviour of other people who can be described with the same adjective. That, by definition, is discrimination.

Yes it is

The difference is thaat Jewish people (or any other of the less contentious groups who have been hastily dragged in to make the first attempt seem less offensive) are not asking for a shift in people's perceptions so that they can claim to be something they aren't.

They exist as they are, and if there are those who have issues with their existence the problem lies with them. TRAs/Transallies are asking others to believe that changing sex is possible, and to have special dispensation to do things that other people don't. They are asking to be given the right to enter lucrative sports contests with massive advantage, to enter spaces previously reserved for the opposite sex, to have the language adapted to protect their sensibilities and push out those of women, and so on. They also claim to be 'the most marginalised group' in society, when this is not borne out by the evidence at all.

They have no mandate for this from transpeople who just want to live as transpeople, and not live a lie, but surely it is not surprising that those being asked to make all the concessions above might assume that the demands are coming from all transpeople - these things can't be considered on a case by case basis after all. It is not 'discrimination' to point that out, whichever way you look at it.

It's still discrimination though

This thread has taken a sinister turn

And if it gets reported, it wasn't me

Laters

It’s blatant discrimination against females when TW do those things mentioned by Doodledog above and evidenced by many such activities.

But who is to blame for damaging the image of transpeople who do none of those things?

Is it the trans who do those discriminatory acts, and the raucous support they are given for doing that?

I hope no one would say the blame lies with the females who object to TW cheating, or object to TW accessing female safe spaces and facilities or TW presenting themselves as ‘women’ when a female has been requested.

But I’m afraid that some posters might.

''The difference is thaat Jewish people (or any other of the less contentious groups who have been hastily dragged in to make the first attempt seem less offensive) are not asking for a shift in people's perceptions so that they can claim to be something they aren't.'' it depends when and where''. I have Jewish friends who have moved away from Israel, as they just cannot be or be part of, in any way, shape or form, what Jews are doing to Palestinians right now and for a very long time. And using their faith to do so. Fact.

What is your point Fleurpepper?

All of those people are still Jewish, whether they agree with the Israeli government or not.
Would any of them deny that they are?

FleurPepper
I have Jewish friends too they would never deny that they are Jewish. So I don’t understand the point you are making.

I think it best to leave Jewish people out of it, or indeed any other group other than the trans lobby.

To anyone who believes trans people are valid

I'd really recommend leaving this thread. Sometimes it's better to leave others shouting into the void without providing a punch bag.

The original topic has been corrupted completely

Fleurpepper

''The difference is thaat Jewish people (or any other of the less contentious groups who have been hastily dragged in to make the first attempt seem less offensive) are not asking for a shift in people's perceptions so that they can claim to be something they aren't.'' it depends when and where''. I have Jewish friends who have moved away from Israel, as they just cannot be or be part of, in any way, shape or form, what Jews are doing to Palestinians right now and for a very long time. And using their faith to do so. Fact.

What has that got to do with the thread, FP?

I'm sorry - I don't mean to keep picking you up on points like this, as I do get the impression that you are posting in good faith; but the point of my post is that there is no link between anti-semitism and the questioning of TRA's insistence on changing society to suit them. Jews did not insist on any of the things I mentioned, so discrimination against them was based on unfounded prejudice. Objecting to such insistence is not the same thing at all, which is what volver wanted to suggest upthread.

In an ideal world, people like your Jewish friends, your trans friends and your anti-Apartheid friends would live in peace, and nobody on this thread is saying that they were wrong or had any dubious motives. But there are some Trans Rights Activists who are not like them, and who are violently oppressing women who object to what we see as our erasure, and it is these people who are being referred to on this thread.

When posters suggest that some TRAs spoil things for other transpeople it is those like your niece that they are referring to and supporting - people who harm nobody and just go about their lives in a way that makes them happy. They would have a much better chance of being supported in that aim if not for others who want to cheat at sport, enter female spaces, change the language and skew research data so that sex-based disparities are hidden, and crime figures are meaningless where sex-based differences are concerned.

Prentice

I think it best to leave Jewish people out of it, or indeed any other group other than the trans lobby.

Agreed. But when it was brought in it needed to be challenged.

It is about discrimination about certain groups, and association. My friends will never deny that they are Jewish, but they clearly want to dissociate themselves from what is happening in Israel, and about the dreadful discrimination and crimes being perpetrated in the name of their religion., and Zionism.

I agree Prentice and posted yesterday that bringing race and/or religion into the discussion muddies the water as this issue has nothing to do with either.

The only reason I can see for introducing Jewish people, Muslim women or any other group other than the trans lobby is to try and underpin a weak argument.

It's been said time and time again that the concerns raised here and on other threads dealing with this issue, are for the loss of women's spaces, the potential of women being at risk when this is the case, the ridiculous alternatives to the word woman being used such as breast feeders, people who bleed etc and the issue raised in this discussion specifically, the concern that a woman requesting female only care may not be informed if one of her carers is trans regardless of how that carer looks.