Princess Grace hospital cancelled vital surgery for woman who requested single-sex care

Bloody hell.

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Mollygo

VioletSky

You cannot genuinely engage in any kind of discussion without being open minded to being wrong.

Really VS?

Every time you equate the word transwoman with being female (couching it in the corrupted terms ‘woman’ or ‘women’) you are wrong, but you keep doing it. That’s not open mindedness.

He knew he was male whatever he ‘looked like’.
She had asked for females.
Ergo he was wrong to go in there.

No thank you

Your 'niece' Fleurpepper is male, regardless of appearance.
If stereotypes were not so well reinforced in most people's minds it would be perfectly fine for people such as your 'niece' to acknowledge being male with no fear.
Unfortunately, current trans ideology is reinforcing those stereotypes even more strongly.

VS 21:22

It's sexism

Glad you think so V S
Sexism
sexism
/ˈsɛksɪz(ə)m/
noun
prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against females, on the basis of sex.

VioletSky

You cannot genuinely engage in any kind of discussion without being open minded to being wrong.

Really VS?

Every time you equate the word transwoman with being female (couching it in the corrupted terms ‘woman’ or ‘women’) you are wrong, but you keep doing it. That’s not open mindedness.

He knew he was male whatever he ‘looked like’.
She had asked for females.
Ergo he was wrong to go in there.

Galaxy

'Masculine appearing women' is just another stereotype that all this relies on. Clothes, make up, haircut etc have absolutely nothing to do with what sex you are. Those are expectations of society and ones which we were until relatively recently doing quite a good job of dismantling.

Cross posted with this and your other post about homophobia. I agree on both counts. The whole idea that being a woman is about wearing certain clothes, or living in a particular (but always undefined) way is ludicrous. As is the idea that a lesbian will want to have sex with a man just because he is wearing a dress. Sexism, homophobia and misogyny all bundled together.

Most of the gender critical women I know are lesbians VS so they tend not to harass other lesbians. Were you thinking of someone specific?

You won't dismantle them entirely because men and women perpetuate them

Bit having gender norms is actually seperate to using them to discriminate don't you think?

growstuff

Which others?

There are serious discussions to be had about gender politics, but stories such as this one discredit the genuine arguments.

For now, I think that this is true, as we don't know the full facts.

All the same, and leaving the details of this particular case aside, the principle hinges on whether a trans-identifying nurse can count as female when male-bodied, and whether it is ok to disrespect a female patient's request not to be treated by male staff after it was agreed that this would not happen.

If not, do we, as women, have a word that defines us any more? Is there anywhere we can go that men cannot follow us, or do we just have to step aside and let men be subsumed into our sex class and let them access all areas (geographical, social and physical) whether we like it or not, and whether or not we have been told that we are in an all-female environment? If so, why? Just because some men want to?

Questions also need to be asked about what constitutes a transwoman, so that patients who care about the sex of those who treat them can give informed consent. Is it any man in a dress, is it someone who has medically transitioned, someone who is 'feeling like a girl' that day, or what? If the answer is 'someone who lives as a woman', what does that mean in practice?

Without a definition of terms, it is very difficult to discuss sensitive issues like this one, as people talk at cross-purposes, yet the trans lobby always refuse to answer questions about definitions. I wonder if those two things are related.

Galaxy

'Masculine appearing women' is just another stereotype that all this relies on. Clothes, make up, haircut etc have absolutely nothing to do with what sex you are. Those are expectations of society and ones which we were until relatively recently doing quite a good job of dismantling.

Exactly why they are being bullied as trans by GC feminists

It's sexism

'Masculine appearing women' is just another stereotype that all this relies on. Clothes, make up, haircut etc have absolutely nothing to do with what sex you are. Those are expectations of society and ones which we were until relatively recently doing quite a good job of dismantling.

If butch lesbians and masculine appearing women are being bullied as trans it stands to reason you cannot always tell by looking

And you cannot

I’ve just read all about this online as this thread is quite heated and I wanted to know what it was all about. Why was this woman asked about gender, pronouns etc on her initial forms? Is this the norm now for hospital treatment?
If this lady was a victim of an assault then surely compassion could have been shown. It all sounds so strange and extreme to me. Is this the reality of hospital admissions nowadays.

Glad you're keeping with the open mind there VS

That misses the point so spectacularly it was a full 180

Sorry fleur but lesbians are women I find it quite homophobic to suggest otherwise. Lesbians are women and transwomen are men.
I am afraid that one of the reasons I am gender critical is that these conversations generally involve homophobia specifically aimed at lesbians.

Well my belief is

You cannot genuinely engage in any kind of discussion without being open minded to being wrong.

Otherwise you are just making statements into the void

Guess that's why I'm an agnostic

Which others?

There are serious discussions to be had about gender politics, but stories such as this one discredit the genuine arguments.

Galaxy

I think pretending that we cant generally tell what sex people are is part of the problem.

What does that mean? Some Lesbians are very much female but look a bit, or a lot 'butch' as said above. Can they be nurses? Can they care for someone who states 'female only'.

My two friends can fairly easily be guessed as trans, but they are not butch, at all and have their own long hair- but proportions of hands and voice are the issue.

And my niece, well I'd challenge anyone, just anyone, to know. she has had full reversal, is very pretty and feminime, lovely voice, no Adam's apple, slim but shapely. So, would she be suitable to nurse- and to nurse someone who says 'female' only- as the fact she is trans does not show, and as she is called Mrs XYZ, as she is married to man? It is just not so simple.

This is from the woman's initial complaint:

"During my initial assessment I told you how transphobic I was, with my demands for single-sex accomodations and my refusal to use trans people’s pronouns or to otherwise “engage” with “gender ideology”
I am using a private hospital like yours because the are so many rapes at NHS facilities
In just the last few years men have started watching so much gross porn that I am frightened that someone will snap kinky porn of me with their cellphone camera
When I came in for a pre-surgical exam today, a creepy man in drag came into my exam room for a moment, uninvited, and looked at me
This demonstrates that you do not take care to protect women
Therefore I request that
no males other than doctors or my doctor’s team may have direct contact with me unless I give permission
I get a private room and bathroom
you log that person coming into the room as a Patient Dignity Lapse."

The hospital replied the next day (not three day later, as claimed by her supporters) that it was cancelling the op because it could not provide what she was requesting.

growstuff

Lathyrus

volver

Its got nothing to do with the NHS.

I guess racism wasn't recognised as a bad thing either, 100 years ago. The world moves on and attitudes change.

The core issue is that a member of staff deliberately ignored the dignity of a patient and made an unauthorised and unnecessary visit to her room. The reasons why they decided to do that need to be investigated.

Support for trans people should not cloud the key issue. Neither should prejudice against trans people.

I don’t really see that racism, trans friends, 2+2 or whatever etc have anything to do with the core issue, which is not in doubt.

It is being investigated!!!

Next problem please1

Tell it to the others😁

It's a statement of belief. I am an atheist, I dont believe in the existence of God. Are you saying I cant say that.

VioletSky

Imagine I just walled up to people and said

"It's fine to be Christian but God doesn't exist"

That would be rude

You can have protected beliefs

Nothing wrong with that

Doesn't mean you need to go around shouting it at people

Um, You mean like “I’m a woman. Suck my woman dick”
or “Gay is another word for coward”.

Stuff like that?

Lathyrus

volver

Its got nothing to do with the NHS.

I guess racism wasn't recognised as a bad thing either, 100 years ago. The world moves on and attitudes change.

The core issue is that a member of staff deliberately ignored the dignity of a patient and made an unauthorised and unnecessary visit to her room. The reasons why they decided to do that need to be investigated.

Support for trans people should not cloud the key issue. Neither should prejudice against trans people.

I don’t really see that racism, trans friends, 2+2 or whatever etc have anything to do with the core issue, which is not in doubt.

It is being investigated!!!

Next problem please1