Misuse of emergency ambulances

GSM- I am totally confused ' I wouldn’t expect to be treated as an emergency with a suspended broken arm '

would you, or would you not. Your posts are conflicting.

Of course a suspected broken arm could have other aggravating circumstances if combined with other issues or handicap. If those are not made clear when the comment is made- then how would people know?

Over the years, with children and GCs- and also visitors, I have had to attend A&E many times- sometimes for quite serious stuff. I have never ever called an ambulance, because although serious, I drove myself to take pressure off ambulance service. DD1 only called an ambulance twice due to severe, life threatening, anaphilactic shock for GS.

growstuff

BlueBelle If you managed two buses, how come you needed A&E? I've only ever been to A&E when I've known that my (or somebody else's) condition was possibly life-threatening or the patient couldn't move. Shouldn't you have gone to a local minor injuries unit or similar?

not all areas have minor injuries units
I had to call 111 this week and they did a video consultation and admitted to A&E, we went by car as there was no need for an ambulance but I think they were on strike anyway....

Germanshepherdsmum

Poppyred

Germanshepherdsmum

Get someone to take you to hospital or catch a bus if you have a suspected broken arm, Poppyred? I’m lucky I have a husband who could drive me the 28 miles to hospital. And wait for me and bring me back. Would you seriously expect a neighbour to do that? And no buses out here. I expect you’ll say I would have to pay for a taxi.
I’m glad you won’t be answering the phone if I have to call 999.

ABSOLUTELY!

You do NOT need an ambulance with a suspected broken arm! No wonder we are in such a mess!

Ambulances are first and foremost for LIFE THREATENING CIRCUMSTANCES.

No matter my age and whether I am disabled (unknown to you and it is relevant) and regardless of whether I could afford taxis? I wouldn’t expect to be treated as an emergency with a suspended broken arm but I’m surprised at your complete lack of empathy without knowing the circumstances.

Not unsympathetic at all, just stating a fact. The call handler would advise exploring all other ways to get to hospital other than by ambulance.

A suspected broken arm is not life threatening. It does not require an ambulance. Tying up an ambulance with something like that could mean the next patient dies.
You can get to A&E by car via a friend, neighbour or family member; by bus or by taxi. Surely?
Unless you are completely housebound and physically unable to leave your house?
There are dozens of reasons to visit A&E when it’s out of hours or an obvious sprained or fractured limb, but most don’t necessitate an ambulance do they?

Yes. Thank you Discoqueen.
Poppyred YES. I can’t see how anyone can contradict you !
Ex frontline, respect everyone please. A suspected broken arm is plainly far from obvious, therefore hardly life threatening or an emergency. Please let’s gets back to basics and save the service.
I’d suggest mental health is what needs addressing as priority.

I would like to know what advice would be given to a very elderly, housebound person living alone in an isolated area with no means of getting to hospital almost 30 miles away, who had a suspected broken arm? No that’s not me but it could easily be, Not an emergency but would anyone call and, if necessary, take me to hospital?

Germanshepherdsmum

I would like to know what advice would be given to a very elderly, housebound person living alone in an isolated area with no means of getting to hospital almost 30 miles away, who had a suspected broken arm? No that’s not me but it could easily be, Not an emergency but would anyone call and, if necessary, take me to hospital?

A non emergency ambulance could be arranged in exceptional circumstances.

What are ‘exceptional circumstances’?

Poppyred

Germanshepherdsmum

I would like to know what advice would be given to a very elderly, housebound person living alone in an isolated area with no means of getting to hospital almost 30 miles away, who had a suspected broken arm? No that’s not me but it could easily be, Not an emergency but would anyone call and, if necessary, take me to hospital?

A non emergency ambulance could be arranged in exceptional circumstances.

If absolutely unable to get to hospital despite exploring every other Avenue?

Yes, phoning a relative or friend, or neighbour, and only call ambulance if no-one able to help.

I have taken neighbours to A&E, 40 miles away, in the middle of the night. Others would do the same for me.

Theoretically then ,just curl up and die.

NO GSM- stop this nonsense.

I've had to call the ambulance a few times for help in getting my elderly father (with complex health issues) back up again when he had fallen. Was it an emergency? No, but, even between us, my elderly mother and I couldn't get him back up again. And, apart from when he fell outside and broke his scapula, he always fell in the wee hours and no neighbours would appreciate being knocked up at 2am to get the 'old fella' back on his feet again! Being rural we couldn't exactly rotate between the neighbours either.

We checked with 999 about moving him (he always fell in an awkward spot so breathing was compromised or onto a hard (and very cold!) floor), After extensively questioning me and my father, the advice was usually - try and move him into a more comfortable position (he never liked that part!!) and cover him with blankets - we also checked if it was OK to put a pillow under his head.

The dispatcher would also apologise profusely that it would be (usually) about a 5 hour wait for a non-emergency crew to get out to us. We always reassured them that we knew we weren't an emergency and the wait was fine - the crew would get to us when they could and we told 999 that if his condition changed (it never did) we'd call back. Then we'd spend the rest of the night sitting around near my father, chatting - or letting him doze - until a crew could get to us. If there had been another option for "helping old dears back up again after a fall" we would have used it.

We also had to ring 999 for emergencies too - my father was in heart failure and kidney failure. And, after midnight one day, my mother developed severe pneumonia in what seemed like a matter of minutes - struggling to breathe, too weak to speak or move etc, etc.

BTW, whether it was an emergency or not, my mother would always ask if we should've called 111 instead... Not one of the attending crew thought that 111 was any good... Although I should point out that this was 10 years or so ago

I also had to call out an ambulance when I found an elderly neighbour I used to check on collapsed on his floor. The doors were bolted so I couldn't get in to check on him. As soon as 999 heard this they also dispatched a fire crew (who turned up about 2 minutes before the ambulance) to gain access. Both ambulance crew and fire were brilliant. After forcing the (wooden) door the fire crew hung around to fix it and repair the bolt. While the ambulance crew had to try and assess my neighbour around me - he had become delirious, convinced he was going to fall sideways (in a chair with arms) and wouldn't let go of my arm. We never knew what had happened but concluded he'd fallen (and, as it turned out, broken his femur) while making his dinner the previous evening. He had one of those emergency buttons but refused to wear it...

So, big cheer and huge thanks to our Ambulance Service (and the fire brigade!). To my mind, they are amazing.

Would I call an ambulance if I was ambulatory and compos mentis? No. At my speed it is a half hour walk to the nearest bus stop and I'd have to change buses, but I'd still get there under my own steam somehow - a trip to the hospital is around £30 by taxi so if there weren't buses I'd try walking there first!

If I can walk and my brain is still operating normally (!!) and I'm not "bleeding out" I don't class it as an emergency and, despite the 'helping old biddies up' bit, I class the ambulance service as emergency only.

Excuse me but - a suspected broken arm could be, potentially, life-threatening. Think shattered bone, pierced artery, internal bleeding, other injuries, shock etc. - particularly at an advanced age. How, exactly, would you know, for certain, it was a minor injury?

A lot of this (perceived) 'wastage' is simply due to long term underfunding of essential services. Ambulance staff (and police) are left to deal with drunks, drug addicts, those suffering anxiety, mental health crisis, domestic violence etc. - as no other services are available.

I certainly wouldn't be getting a bus or expecting help from neighbours. My family aren't local, either - so I'd call an ambulance.

Well if you have an open fracture or your arm is hanging off, yes.

I wonder if you would if calling an ambulance cost you £500?

Hetty58

Excuse me but - a suspected broken arm could be, potentially, life-threatening. Think shattered bone, pierced artery, internal bleeding, other injuries, shock etc. - particularly at an advanced age. How, exactly, would you know, for certain, it was a minor injury?

A lot of this (perceived) 'wastage' is simply due to long term underfunding of essential services. Ambulance staff (and police) are left to deal with drunks, drug addicts, those suffering anxiety, mental health crisis, domestic violence etc. - as no other services are available.

I certainly wouldn't be getting a bus or expecting help from neighbours. My family aren't local, either - so I'd call an ambulance.

The point is Hetty58 that you might call an ambulance - but you wouldn’t get one. A broken arm isn’t life threatening compared with other imminently life threatening conditions, and it therefore isn’t classed as a high category call. You’d be told that when you ring 999. We are in times of extremis.

Hetty58

Excuse me but - a suspected broken arm could be, potentially, life-threatening. Think shattered bone, pierced artery, internal bleeding, other injuries, shock etc. - particularly at an advanced age. How, exactly, would you know, for certain, it was a minor injury?

A lot of this (perceived) 'wastage' is simply due to long term underfunding of essential services. Ambulance staff (and police) are left to deal with drunks, drug addicts, those suffering anxiety, mental health crisis, domestic violence etc. - as no other services are available.

I certainly wouldn't be getting a bus or expecting help from neighbours. My family aren't local, either - so I'd call an ambulance.

The call handler would ask questions to rule out other injuries first before advising further……

Germanshepherdsmum

Theoretically then ,just curl up and die.

Don’t be so silly! Use your “common sense?”

89Just before Easter I saw a paramedic at our surgery when I had what turned out to be a life threatening condition. She tried to ring an ambulance for me and couldn't even get anyone to answer the phone. In the end she asked my son to take me to A&E where a doctor was waiting for me.

In the past I had to get an ambulance several times when DH fell because a 6' 4" man weighing 18 stone was way beyond my capability. They were always very good at picking him up, checking the reason for the fall and making sure he hadn't done any damage.

My DD and I just missed an accident on the road today (a RTA). A father and teenage son had come off their bike. Something to do with a care being driven by a young woman.

The father (driver of the motorbike) called an ambulance although both he and his son could just about walk. It arrived within 5/10 minutes. The police arrived about 10 minutes after that.

While it was a RTA, no one was particularly injured. The father and son moved the bike to the side of the road. I think they did need to go to hospital, but I don't think they necessarily needed an ambulance. Several cars (including us) stopped to help. Any of us could have taken them to hospital. There was an A&E about 10/15 minutes drive away.

Many community ‘safety nets’ have been removed due to years of austerity.

GP surgeries in many places are close to collapse, small local charities providing mental health services have had their funding cut with a subsequent loss of service, cottage hospitals with minor injury units have also been closed - and the police and emergency services are frequently the only remaining option for someone in a mental health crisis.

I admire the police and ambulance service enormously, they do a stressful job under normal circumstances, but I think they’re currently having to plug gaps in mental health provision - and that’s not okay for them and it’s not okay for mentally unwell people.

GagaJo

My DD and I just missed an accident on the road today (a RTA). A father and teenage son had come off their bike. Something to do with a care being driven by a young woman.

The father (driver of the motorbike) called an ambulance although both he and his son could just about walk. It arrived within 5/10 minutes. The police arrived about 10 minutes after that.

While it was a RTA, no one was particularly injured. The father and son moved the bike to the side of the road. I think they did need to go to hospital, but I don't think they necessarily needed an ambulance. Several cars (including us) stopped to help. Any of us could have taken them to hospital. There was an A&E about 10/15 minutes drive away.

If I witnessed a RTA that involved two motorbikes and a car I think I would probably phone for the police and an ambulance. I know of a case where someone walked away from a car crash thinking they were ok. They actually had a fractured skull and died.

GagaJo Surely, under the circumstances, someone should have offered to drive them to the hospital. On the other hand, if someone suffered further injury because a car was used instead that could lead to further problems.

The motorcyclists could also have been concussed, an injury that might not become apparent for several days. In this case I think an ambulance was neeeded.

People have always abused A&E and the ambulance service. I was an A&E sister some years ago. At times I’d see an ambulance pull up outside the entrance and I’d stand by the window and watch to see who/what we were getting. Countless times I saw a crew member get out followed by someone jauntily making their way towards our entrance. I’d keep watching expecting to next see the patient being helped out of the vehicle and into the hospital. When nobody else left the ambulance I would realise that the ‘jaunty walker’ was in fact the patient. To my mind if you can get yourself out of an ambulance and walk normally you have no business calling an ambulance.

About 6 years ago my late mother, then in her eighties, broke her arm. She fell down the stairs while visiting me and wound up with a compound fracture of her upper arm. I called 999 and an ambulance arrived about an hour later, however, they decided they weren't able to deal with the situation so called for an advanced paramedic who arrived shortly after in a car. He requested the air ambulance but it was already on another call. Another ambulance, with an appropriately qualified
crew, arrived after about half an hour and they were able to take her to a&e. The original ambulance and the paramedic left after that. It seemed to me that we were taking up an inordinate amount resources for an unreasonable length of time, but it was not our decision.