Nurses needing degrees

When I started, student nurses were paid. (males got more pay). I think the fact that the NHS trained nurses were paid more abroad and left the NHS changed the system. It is a shame.
Nowadays there are less qualified going abroad than their were, so there could be a case for introducing payment for the practical side perhaps.

Daddima

David49

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

I agree that a nurse being qualified to degree level is a good thing, but I do think losing Enrolled Nurse training was a mistake. They used to do two years practical training, mostly on wards, so were extremely competent in ‘hands-on’ patient care.

They still do practical training as part of their degree. The degree course involves placements in hospitals or other settings appropriate to the particular nursing degree.

The first degree that medical doctors receive is not the equivalent of a doctorate. That is a much higher degree and one that only a small % of doctors go in to attain.

David49

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

I agree that a nurse being qualified to degree level is a good thing, but I do think losing Enrolled Nurse training was a mistake. They used to do two years practical training, mostly on wards, so were extremely competent in ‘hands-on’ patient care.

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

Initial training for nurses should be free. At the moment they pay and work long hours in hospital when not in uni. And uni content should be relevant. One project my nursing undergraduates had to do was design and produce an artefact with an info message. One got marked down because her choice of typeface wasn't the best. Someone put a message on a mug and got top marks. How is that relevant to the qualification to nurse sick patients.

I think it's great that nurses have to have a degree for senior or specialist work but I also think it shouldn't be for all of them. They still need the kind of nurses who will help patients with their more basic needs eg washing, toiletting, make them comfortable and generally chat to them and care for them.
My experience of visiting friends and family in hospital is that the nurses gather around a desk talking (not saying they aren't discussing work) and even when asked several times for some help to take a patient to the loo no help is forthcoming. The only such help my mother had in this respect was from a ward assistant who also gave up after asking nurses for help more than once.

Worriedwell wrote Weren't doc I'lltors involved? I've been in hospital a few times and decisions about diagnosis and treatment have always involved doctors

No doctors were involved until he was actually admitted. It was a nurse-run unit,

I have great respect for nurses and I think they often see things doctors miss. But I do not think they need a degree, or that half the people in other professions do, either. Nursing and hospitals have gone downhill since nursing became an intellectual thing, as far as I have observed. Of course, now there is a lot of technology to be operated, but basic care and kindness and being attuned to the patient is what counts.

Commons debate recorded in Hansard

The title “Doctor” in the UK has never been reserved for the sole use by holders of higher degrees, and it’s use is as defined in the OED. It’s essentially a courtesy title with regard to medical practitioners who do not hold PhDs or MDs (although surgeons are not addressed as “Doctor” but instead “Mister” “Missus” or “Miss”).

There is now a Nurse Apprentice Ship scheme over 4 years. Which looks very good to me.
Ateotd, in nursing one needs kind practical people with a bit of commonsense.
There are a lot of care assistants who do a great job. There is a need for advanced practioners too.
But the most important nurse is the one next to the patient.
I had a fascinating life nursing in all sorts of fields but was amused that the students could write fully referenced essays but had great difficulty with maths calculations.

I qualified as a S.R.N. in 1982 and was encouraged then to do the Diploma of Nursing straight away which was funded. Then we were told if you don't want to be left behind in the job stakes by the new degree nurses coming up then you must get a degree. I didn't want another nursing degree, I wanted something wider so took a BSc (Hons) Open in Social Sciences at my expense and whilst in a full time job. THEN I was told at appraisal if I wanted to progress (I did) I needed a Master degree so I took a MSc in Nursing (part funded) and still found myself needing an up to date CV and interviews during reorganisation for my own job. So I popped to the private sector did some Open Business School courses (self funded) and came back to the NHS as one of the first Nurse Consultants.

Chocolatelovinggran

*Primrose * , it is not unusual for people retired from a profession to be critical of their successors: this may, or may not, reflect the performance of such.

Very true. I was a patient on a busy ward with bad concussion after a traffic accident. One patient was a retired nurse and she moaned constantly. Apparently in her day there would have been no noise on the ward, food was better, if you rang your bell a nurse magically appeared instantly. She was a complete pain and everyone was sick of her, due to a blinding headache I was very tempted to tell her to shut up as she was upsetting everyone and was hurting my head.

SueDonim

My dh has recently been very ill in hospital. All the nurses were absolutely lovely, they couldn’t do enough for us, even me as just the spouse, and not the patient.

Nonetheless, not one of the nurses realised for five days that what my dh was suffering from was neither an allergy or an infection but a very rare and serious side effect of some medication he’d been given. Thus, he’d been pumped full of drugs he didn’t need whilst not receiving the drug he did need.

Like the situation with PA’s, sometimes staff don’t know when they’re working beyond their limitations.

Weren't doc I'lltors involved? I've been in hospital a few times and decisions about diagnosis and treatment have always involved doctors.

my daughter is training to be a nurse she is late 30s. As she had not got the right qualifications to start training she took one degree which gave her a general education degree. this meant she went in to the nursing degree at year two instead of year one. this year hopefully she will pass and be a fully qualified nurse. though she has done some Uni work in class much is based on home working and placements.

Chocolatelovinggran

*Primrose * , it is not unusual for people retired from a profession to be critical of their successors: this may, or may not, reflect the performance of such.

So true. I think there's also a tendency to lapse into the 'back in my day' attitude, when in reality, a profession may well have changed considerably during that time. I know mine certainly has. The career I worked in for my entire life bears very little resemblance to the same role today.

Chocolatelovinggran

*Primrose * , it is not unusual for people retired from a profession to be critical of their successors: this may, or may not, reflect the performance of such.

Exactly

Primrose , it is not unusual for people retired from a profession to be critical of their successors: this may, or may not, reflect the performance of such.

mum2three

I recently was seen by the nurse at my local surgery. I was surprised at the questions she was asking and I said, 'I've already discussed all this with the doctor, you're a nurse not a doctor'.

She was rather put out and made a mess of my arm when she took a blood sample. I still have the bruise a week later!

I know that doctors are very busy but I don't think nurses should be used as a substitute.

There’s not a lot to say about your response to a trained professional without offending. Which you probably would be with that attitude.

FGT, empathy from me, delays in identifying cancer were there for my husband and my brother in law. Both sought help for symptoms which I now know were direct indicators of the primary cancers that took their lives.

Co-incidentally, both saw their GP with gastric problems in 2021. Both referred to specialists, various scans tests done, bil discharged. My husband diagnosed with devastating metastasised cancer 5 months after he first saw his GP.
Mr I had anemia, poor kidney function, abdo pain at night, weight loss, tiredness. All clear indicators of the primary cancer. My bil was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer a year ago, his symptoms were exactly those linked to that cancer. He died 2 weeks ago.

I don’t believe earlier treatment could have saved their lives because by the time symptoms took them to the doc the cancers were advanced and spreading. Our contact with our GP, the nurse practitioners at our surgery and at the Christie was always positive

mum2three

I recently was seen by the nurse at my local surgery. I was surprised at the questions she was asking and I said, 'I've already discussed all this with the doctor, you're a nurse not a doctor'.

She was rather put out and made a mess of my arm when she took a blood sample. I still have the bruise a week later!

I know that doctors are very busy but I don't think nurses should be used as a substitute.

Gosh, how rude of you!

It was a GP who missed my breast cancer and refused to believe me when I said that my breast felt different. My eventual treatment was delayed by five months until I had a routine mammogram. By that time, I had developed a second cancer in the same breast and had to have more extensive surgery than if it had been diagnosed earlier. I will never know if a nurse would have been more sympathetic and been more pro-active, but I do know that I've become more assertive when speaking to doctors because I don't have 100% trust in them. Since surgery, I've had a number of check ups with nurses, who have all examined me thoroughly and asked about any other concerns which could be symptoms of secondary cancer. One advantage they have is the appointments last longer, so they have more time to listen. They've always referred me for scans or consultations with a consultant, if they have had any concerns.

Yet the doctors were useless when dealing with DH's heart failure. It was the paramedics that put the jogsaw bits together and realised where in the NHS system he ought to be - and the improvement in DH's health has been quite remarkable.

Don’t get me started on what an Advanced Nurse Practitioner missed for 5 months with my darling man. I could cry even now thinking about it. So much time lost. Treating ‘anaemia’ - “well you’re bleeding from somewhere”. Vit B12 injections, Looking at a computer screen, checking tick boxes for guidance.

Ye gods. Never ever again. Doctors all way from now on.

Primrose53

Loads of my school friends became SRNs. All grammar school girls. I also knew a lot of girls from Sec Mod and they went down the SEN route.

Having spent time in various hospitals having babies and minor ops I usually found SENs to be the ones who found time for a quick chat or a reassuring few words.

Many of my nursing friends have retired in the past few years and been patients themselves since. They are quite critical of the degree trained nurses of today.

I'm afraid I disagree.

Over the last 7 years, I've had a heart attack, breast cancer and a melanoma. I've also been T2 diabetic all the time.

My contact with the NHS has been mainly nurse-led and I have been extremely impressed with the knowledge and care shown by the nurses involved, especially the breast care nurses. Obviously none of them has performed any actual surgery, but they've been able to monitor, diagnose and recommend ways of alleviating symptoms of treatment and refer when necessary. I noticed that some of the breast care team have jointly written academic papers with doctors.

I've been diabetic for over 30 years and during that time, I have noticed the vast improvement in the diabetic nurses' knowledge. The first nurse I had was hopeless. All she knew was "old wives tales", but little of her advice was backed up by the latest research. My current diabetic nurse is (I would guess) in her early 30s, so must be a graduate nurse with further qualifications in diabetic care and she really does know her stuff. The fact that my condition hasn't deteriorated for years is down to her care and that of her immediate predecessor, who was also a graduate nurse.

The nurses I saw for post heart attack care were also excellent and were always able to explain things to me, which helped me to work with them to manage my own health.

As a child, I was unfortunately quite sickly (I was born with a deformed tibia and was hospitalised for meningitis) and I still have flashbacks about how unfriendly most of the nurses were. They were nowhere near the calibre of today's nurses.