Nurses needing degrees

M0nica

Indigo8 The division has been replaced by whether you went to a 'Russell Group' university or not.

As the number of Russell Group universities has increased from about half a dozen to 24 over the years, I am not sure if the definition is still as meaningful as it once was.

Indigo8 The division has been replaced by whether you went to a 'Russell Group' university or not.

M0nica

Barleyfields

I do agree that nurses and social workers should not have to pay for their professional education and training. We need these people and they’re not paid a fortune.

In which case, should teachers pay for their professional training? What about all the engineers that ensure we have the gas and electricity to keep us warm in winter, or all those who look after our infra structure. Where should the line be drawn and why?

There used to be a distinction between what was considered vocational training ie. specialised training to do a specific job and a more general degree which could be a stepping stone to any number of different jobs or professions.

Now that so many different sorts of training lead to a degree, the line between vocational and stepping stone has become somewhat blurred.

I agree our doctor/vet people were as bad as each other

Iam64

Not wishing to undermine your experience worriedwell but - I had a challenge persuading my vet to test my young dog for hypothyroidism, initially he simply refused. I went back a month later and insisted. He gave me the results and asked if I’m a Doctor as how had I known? Nope, I’m an older woman with friends displaying these symptoms exhausted, weight gain poor skin and hair …

Sorry I don't think that excuses my doctor, how come the nurse immediately identified the problem? My DD left home and had a different GP, she was identified with an underactive thyroid in her 20s.

Maybe your vet was as bad as my doctor.

Not wishing to undermine your experience worriedwell but - I had a challenge persuading my vet to test my young dog for hypothyroidism, initially he simply refused. I went back a month later and insisted. He gave me the results and asked if I’m a Doctor as how had I known? Nope, I’m an older woman with friends displaying these symptoms exhausted, weight gain poor skin and hair …

Caleo

The Worried Well, I don't understand how the doctor missed hypothyroidism.! I used to work for a retired GP and a regular grouch of his was that much so called depression in elderly women is hypophyroidism.

I don't think I would have been described as elderly. I first went to him with the symptoms when I was in my 40s.

the worriedwell - I had many blood tests between the age of 25 and 43 because of swollen joints, lack of movement or strength in my hands and wrists and worst of all, exhaustion. My TATT was dismissed as being a busy mum with small children. My GP said we don’t know why your hands and wrists are hot and swollen, just be glad it isn’t rheumatoid arthritis. It was.

Aged about 43 I almost lost the sight in my left eye. It was euvitis/inflamatory eye disease. Awful pain and light sensitive. I was lucky, the emergency GP read all my notes and told me I had inflammatory arthritis which previous blood tests showed as serum negative, something they now knew happened with active disease.
He sent me off to the eye hospital - steroids saved my eye. Tests showed both eyes permanently damaged by previous inflammation I hadn’t known about. The eye consultant told me “of course it’s arthritis, you will be partially sighted and disabled within ten years” . He turned on his heels and walked out
My GP reassured me, my positive attitude alongside better treatments meant he thought I’d be up before that happened
I’m 75 - doing well thanks to biologic injectables
Thank goodness for the NHS

The Apprenticeship has been going for a few years now. It's not a full degree course But you can do an extra year or so on top to give you the full degree. I think they start at Band 4 (bit like the old SEN's) the full degree you go in on a Band 5 and can go through the grades ( Senior Ward Sister /Charge Nurse/ Practitioners normally a Band 7 or even a 8a)

cc.....These day you shouldn't get a bad back, everyone has to do a lifting course yearly. Demonstrating how to used equipment to move patients.
It's all H&S and cast in stone.

I think that the idea of an Apprenticeship sounds excellent, presumably they can earn money whilst learning.
I'm concerned that so many nurses and Physios end up with bad backs, unable to continue in their active jobs.

hypothyroidism

The Worried Well, I don't understand how the doctor missed hypothyroidism.! I used to work for a retired GP and a regular grouch of his was that much so called depression in elderly women is hypophyroidism.

Caleo

Rula commented on misdiagnosis by a doctor and subsequent correct diagnosis by a nurse

Diagnosis is s skill that is not entirely learned from books and scientific instruments. The extra skill of diagnosis is acquired by long experience and proper intuition. A newly qualified doctor who is perhaps over worked and rushed can't in many cases be as reliable a diagnostitian as an experienced and well informed nurse.

I was misdiagnosed for years by an experienced GP, he'd have been about late 40s or early 50s going by appearances and his subsequent retirement.

I had seen him numerous times as I felt so tired and unwell. He was determined it was depression, didn't even do something as simple as testing for anaemia.

Eventually I phoned for an appointment as I was just like a zombie, things like I'd go to work and go and sleep in my car at lunchtime, when work finished I'd sleep in my car for an hour before I had the energy to do the 15 minute drive home.

Doctor wasn't available so I saw the nurse practitioner, she looked at my notes, asked me a few questions and said she thought she knew what it was and would do a blood test. Less than 24 hrs later I got a call that the GP needed to see me. You can imagine I was worried. When I sat down his opening words were, "there is good news and bad news. The good news is you will never have to pay for a prescription again, the bad news is you have a very underactive thyroid and we need to get you started on levothyroxine immediately. It will take some months to get you up to the full dose as we need to do it gradually. You poor thing, life must have felt like swimming through treacle." No shit Sherlock shame you'd been ignoring me for nearly 3 years.

So even experienced doctors can get it wrong. The striking thing in my case is the nurse identified it so quickly and accurately and he didn't even have the grace to apologise.

Rula commented on misdiagnosis by a doctor and subsequent correct diagnosis by a nurse

Diagnosis is s skill that is not entirely learned from books and scientific instruments. The extra skill of diagnosis is acquired by long experience and proper intuition. A newly qualified doctor who is perhaps over worked and rushed can't in many cases be as reliable a diagnostitian as an experienced and well informed nurse.

NO that is not what I said. I said the history of these titles goes back tot the 19th century when they did things differently.

M0nica

^Doctors do not have a doctorate, it is an honorary title. In the UK they graduate medical school with two bachelors degrees (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery).^

That is the current situation but the title 'Dr' and 'Mr' for a consultant have roots in the 19th century and like most things in life, things were done dfferently then.

So the only doctors are in fact those with a PhD?
Interesting.

Doctors do not have a doctorate, it is an honorary title. In the UK they graduate medical school with two bachelors degrees (bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery).

That is the current situation but the title 'Dr' and 'Mr' for a consultant have roots in the 19th century and like most things in life, things were done dfferently then.

AGAA4

The difference is that nurses with a degree can take further qualifications as my DD has done and become senior practice nurses at management level. My DD specialises in oncology and hopes to do a post grad course when my GS is older.

My specialist rheumatology nurse is supervised by my Consultant. They’re a great team who combine excellent medical knowledge with excellent emotional care of their patients. I haven’t seen my Consultant in 4 years because the meds she prescribed keep disease stable. After my husband died she asked my nurse to phone, see how I was and pass on sincere condolences. After my recent review,she met with my nurse and arranged a battery of blood/urine other tests. She reviewed my recent dexa scan and asked my nurse to phone to tell me she is reducing my meds as I’m doing so well and she always remembers meeting me about 10 years ago when the disease was horribly active.
How lucky am I to have such compassion combined with superb medical care

The difference is that nurses with a degree can take further qualifications as my DD has done and become senior practice nurses at management level. My DD specialises in oncology and hopes to do a post grad course when my GS is older.

You could go in even younger. My friend, now retired, started as a cadet nurse before doing her SRN.

Witzend

I had thought that in my day (60s) you needed A levels to start SRN training. At least, the girls in my year who went on to be nurses, started post A level.

Yes, you went straight onto a ward as Student Nurse, usually you lived in the nurses home, patient care is much the same but technology and admin are vastly different. A Levels in both cases, nursing is a vocation for life, fairly high pressure these days, my wife was a nurse and midwife, she lasted 35 yrs.

Witzend

I had thought that in my day (60s) you needed A levels to start SRN training. At least, the girls in my year who went on to be nurses, started post A level.

The girls I knew, some of whom had gone to the Secondary Modern School, did the pre-nursing course at the Further Education College and went on to train as SRNs. In fact, I'm sure a member of my family did the pre-nursing course instead of A levels in the late 1970s.

Many years ago shortly after qualifying we would show the junior doctors how to do many procedures. Fortunately our patients were children or babies so they were not bothered!

I had thought that in my day (60s) you needed A levels to start SRN training. At least, the girls in my year who went on to be nurses, started post A level.

Daddima

ViceVersa

Daddima

David49

Nurses do need a degree it’s a lot more technical, managerial and administrative than it used to be. However most of the staff on the wards are not nurses they are CSWs Clinical Support Workers and many have only a short training before helping patients and gain further qualifications over time.

Nurses should have free degree training, but do need to work in the NHS for at least 5 yrs when qualified

I agree that a nurse being qualified to degree level is a good thing, but I do think losing Enrolled Nurse training was a mistake. They used to do two years practical training, mostly on wards, so were extremely competent in ‘hands-on’ patient care.

They still do practical training as part of their degree. The degree course involves placements in hospitals or other settings appropriate to the particular nursing degree.

I know they do practical training, but certainly not as much as a State Enrolled Nurse would have done.
My friend’s daughter was in her third year of doing midwifery training, and told me she couldn’t begin to actually deliver a baby, but she was a dab hand at critiquing articles in medical journals!

On the other hand, the witch who was supposed to be in charge of my care after a distressing Cesarean (a qualified old style midwife allegedly) probably couldn't have delivered a baby safely or even understood an article in a medical journal.