::POA's - do we really need them?

I found that having the POA for my Grandmother was very helpful while I cared for her the last year of her life.

POA is like insurance. You hope you never need it but when you do it is invaluable.

We've done POAs and Wills ourselves. Our situation is much like yours Franbern in that our children can be trusted with our online accounts etc.
But we know that it is not as easy as that through experience with our parents. The red tape is so much easier to get through with legal documents in place and lodged with the proper authorities.

POA's are essentially if you are going to need to manage the daily affairs of someone, from paying household bills to, if necessary, selling a house and clearing it or ending a tenancy.

We do not know in advance when or where or in what circumstances we may become incapacitated. and while it is fine when doctors and family are in agreement about what happens to someone. What if the doctors had not agreed with your requests tulipsfromamsterdam. Without a POA they can just ignore you and do what they think best, which may well be not what you or your mother wanted.

I had POA for my mum but didn’t have to activate it. She was admitted to hospital age 87 very poorly with pneumonia and other issues . I was never asked if I had POA and they liaised with me , I knew her wishes for no invasive treatment and told the medical team and her wishes were respected . She ended up in kidney failure and they said she could be taken to ICU, ventilated and put on dialysis. I knew she didn’t want this as we had discussed it and they accepted it and she passed away peacefully. The doctor did say it was lovely that we had discussed it and medically it was the best decision for her .
When my husband had a stroke at 63 he ended up on life support, we had not done POA for each other . As next of kin I was fully informed and involved with his treatment decisions, sadly he did not survive as we had to withdraw life support.
In my experience in two different hospitals POA was never mentioned and not really necessary in our circumstances.

Retread

For me the question is - why does a PoA have to be done “officially”? Why can one not just write out a similar document that sets out permission and wishes, sign and date it and have it witnessed and kept safely for when it is needed? I don’t understand why the Government has to be involved. It feels like yet another money making scheme …

Because anyone can fake a document.

POA conveys huge power, can be literally life and death.

It has to be registered at the Office of the Public Guardian as official proof it's genuine, when it was made, by whom, to whom etc.

Official proof of house purchase is recorded at the Land Registry; and birth, marriage and death are recorded at the General records Office ( E and W) .

We think POAs essential.

If not POA, perhaps allow your daughters on your accounts?

Franbern, POA is important and essential. You obviously have two amazing daughters who you trust. However, if you were to become incapacitated without a POA in place they have no legal right to access your accounts, or decide what should happen if you become very ill. Knowing where your passwords are kept does not give them the authority to access you accounts. If they did they are at risk of being accused of theft / fraud!!
Please show your daughters
this thread . It is much cheaper online , although we used solicitor - its a personal choice. I pushed for it when my husband was showing signs of dementia- he has since been diagnosed with Alzheimers Disease. Our children are replacement attorneys. Already I have been able to speak to out GP about my husbands condition. POA will allow me to make decisions about my husbands future. If anything happens to me and I am no longer able to be rational then our children step in. Like you we have trustworthy children who all get on well together.

I have twice been involved with handling the affairs of people, whose financial affairs were in impeccable order and who saw no need for POAs and I can assure you, if you have a stroke, or a heart attack and are unable to manage your own affairs, trying to handle somebody elses affairs without a POA is almost impossible.

In one case I had to pay care fees for 2 people for three months from my own resources because we could not access their bank accounts because they were incapacitated and we had no POA. Luckily I had the resources to do so, what would have happened otherwise, I do not know.

In another case it was a relation with very deep depression who would do nothing.

In each case, thank goodness, we managed, eventually, with the help of a solicitor, to concoct POA's on the basis that the incapacitated people had moments of lucidity when they had agreed to everything, but just how legal these consents were, would not have stood up to examination.

If your family need to seek a POA after you are incapacitated then they need to go through the Court of Protection and this severely limits their ability to act on your behalf. I worked, professionally with a family with two people with POAs. The husband had given his wife a POA before hs dementa became severe. Thier brain damaged son had a POA through the Court of Protection. If a carer was needed for the husband, his wife went out and booked one. If the son needed a carer it had to go through the Court of Protection and could take three or four months or more to arrange.

Personally I think any older person who doesn't have a POA, where it is possible, is guilty of (adult) child abuse (the POA is usually a child of grantor of the POA).

With banking online now, I guess your thinking is that your daughters could keep things ticking over without any fuss because they would know your passwords etc.

I can see that. My word of caution is that a POA would protect them from any possible security suspicion of having taken action without your consent or if by any chance a disagreement arise between them.

My mil had a stroke and was in a coma for 11 months. Once transferred to a care home we had to find the money to pay. With no POA we couldn’t sell her house to fund her care and it was all very stressful.

I have both POW s did them a couple of years ago £85 ish each online I believe they ve gone up a weeny bit
Well worth it my eldest is the only one living in UK so she is my decider if I do lose capacity to make decisions
Why try to cut corners it’s not a lot of money in the long run

For me the question is - why does a PoA have to be done “officially”? Why can one not just write out a similar document that sets out permission and wishes, sign and date it and have it witnessed and kept safely for when it is needed? I don’t understand why the Government has to be involved. It feels like yet another money making scheme …

AGAA4

Bank accounts are frozen when a person dies to prevent fraudulent access.
That means no direct debits would be paid.

The POA is NOT for after you die, it is if you become incapacitated either physically or mentally, it is automatically dissolved when you die. There are two POA available one is to do with health and one with finances. They not automatically done together unless you indicate.
We ( my sister and I) had the finance one when my mother became ill so that we could take over the selling of her home and could look after her finances while she was in a care home.

Hi my mum wouldn’t have POA. But we had a joint bank account, and she lived in sheltered housing so the money side of things were no problem.
When she needed to go into a care home from hospital, the social worker made the final decision, I wasn’t able to which in fact was a godsend. So in our case no POA worked well.

My mother had no POA, she lost capacity overnight and left me with a nightmare.

I didn’t even have a legal right to enter her home.

It took me nearly a year to get guardianship and cost a lot more than the £95 POA visa a the government.

In the meantime her house was haemorrhaging money and I was sick with worry, I shaving panic attacks as due to a mix up with Adult Services I was getting demands for 10’s of thousands of pounds.

A POA is essential, your daughters are wrong!

DH and I have both medical and financial POAs, same as Wheniwasyourage.

I discovered during the pandemic, a DNR had been put on my record, without my consent. 🤬
With a medical POA, DH can fight my corner if necessary.

When I became too unwell to work and deal with my affairs, DH took charge, because he could legally do so. It took an enormous burden from my shoulders.

The financial POA willl make life easier for our children, our son shares the same financial advisor and he agreed that the POA will make dealing with our affairs, so much simpler.

It does seem that the advice you are getting here, Franbern, is Just Do It! I would add my vote for that too. My sister and I had POA for my parents and when my widowed mopther eventually decide that she couldn't feel confident in dealing with financial matters, we took over easily by arrangement with the bank. Later on, she developed dementia and was no longer capable of of staying at home, and we could take the responsibility of finding somewhere suitable for her to live.

DH and I have POA arranged in favour of each other and then our children. We did it in our 60s, and it's a relief to know that it is there.

Without a POA you could end up in the position of my IL’s, which is basically that the state takes over your affairs. No one wants that!

It was 35 years ago for my IL’s and POA weren’t a common thing then. Basically, FIL developed dementia and went into a home. A solicitor was appointed by the state and everything financial had to be run past him. So MIL was given a minimal amount to live on and had to apply for funds to eg repair the boiler. Each time, it involved lawyers letters back and forth which each carried a charge and over the course of three years, my MIL had to pay thousands and thousands of pounds to the state. It was very distressing for her, and indeed for us all, as we tried to help out financially.

Just do it, then you never have to think about it again!

Maybe show them this thread?

NotSpaghetti

No. I didn't mean do it without consent Basgetti.
That would be foolish - but if they won't do it when you say you want it done I'd definitely ask someone else you trust!

Fair enough. My comment was in light of OP saying her daughters didn’t believe it necessary. Reading between the lines, that suggests they’re not keen to take on the responsibility. Depending on an individual’s affairs, it can be a pretty onerous task.

No. I didn't mean do it without consent Basgetti.
That would be foolish - but if they won't do it when you say you want it done I'd definitely ask someone else you trust!

we did it just after my husband was diagnosed with Alzheimers, but he could still make decisions, all 3 of our adult children have P.O.A. for each of us, I think it's worth it .

“Just do it. I don't think your children really understand how much this can help you - and how much stress and frustration just having them takes away“

OP can’t just put one in place without the consent of her children, @NotSpaghetti. That’s not fair.
My stepdad recently told me he intended to appoint me. I had to tell him no, I wasn’t comfortable with that. He has two properties, various pensions/investments and we live at opposite ends of the UK. He’s just 13 years older than my disabled husband and I just wouldn’t have the time or energy frankly to administer his affairs. Thankfully, he seems to understand.

AGAA a PoA doesn't give you access after death.
They cease at that point.
But maybe that's what you were saying?

The Financial and Health PoAs were really useful when my mother-in-law was struggling in the last few months of her life.
It allowed me to speak with and for her to all agencies and was worth 100s of times more than the (then) £80 each she invested in them.

We never acted without her say-so but often she would get weary during the day and would confuse all the new people on the scene.... At one point there were 4 or 5 different Katie's so no wonder really.

Also, having a stroke at 101 it was up to us to stress the very able person she was just before it happened - most people don't understand the grit, energy and determination a 101 year old can possess and definitely "sell them short". I know The PoAs made life better for her - especially liaising with people ^legitimately (not just as a favour "well we shouldn't really be talking about her"). This "we shouldn't/cant be discussing this" is what my friend had repeatedly.

My mother-in-law sadly died just before Christmas but the PoAs helped us to help her. We had the right to insist on things, chase things up, buy things she needed with her own money, reimburse ourselves for the new bedding she chose but we paid for, deal with the care agency and once she found online banking difficult we could move money for her and pay her window cleaner and gardener.

Just do it. I don't think your children really understand how much this can help you - and how much stress and frustration just having them takes away.

We are 79 and both have medical and financial POAs for each other, and which also appoint our sons. We're both fit, well and competent but at our age that can change in an instant we've had family examples and have seen the huge problems caused.

Both of them were sudden catastrophic brain injuries that came out of the blue. My uncle fell , and hit his head hard on the edge of paving. This brain injury made him a helpless vegetable for the rest of his life. He had to be in hospital; and I'm afraid the bed-care he got in his local hospital was very poor. Seeing him wet, soiled, bed sores, in a noisy ward with not enough staff, was an additional awful distress for his wife.
Also, bills were mounting at home.

With no POA, the bank froze all accounts that were in his name only. This stopped all the DD's for their domestic utility services, C tax, house insurance, and credit card . His account serviced both their credit cards so now his wife had no credit card. Obviously the last time to have financial and domestic problems with sick relative in hospital (and unable to communicate at all. With no POA, she had to apply to the Court of Protection to appoint suitable "Guardian" ; this can take up to 9 months (and current fee is £400). He got an infection and died before her application came to court. After four months in a non-survivable state I wouldn't let my dog endure.

The other family example is my cousin, 75, retired nurse, had a major brain bleed out of the blue 2 months ago. In hospital ever since, nil by mouth tube fed, very severely mentally impaired ; paralysis induced blood clots in lungs. She is also in pain due to the location of the brsin bleed.

Her NOK is her daughter who has never left home or worked because she is incapable; and nor can Daughter deal with the Drs, take in their medical info, make any forward plans etc. Catch 22, as NOK, D is the only person my cousin's doctors can talk to.

If this had happened to me, I would have mercifully died in the first 48 hours. When I lost mental capacity my POA would have instantly activated , so would my Advance Directive, supported by my Attorneys. My choice. My advance directive refuses consent for tube feeding and other medical interventions to prolong life in such circumstances.

Because I have a POA in place, neither I nor my loved ones will have to endure my wretched prolonged suffering like the above.

Our solicitor helped us arrange all POAs and our total cost for the two of us, inc luding all fees, was around £900.
Well worth it IMO for our own peace of mind and that of our sons.

If your daughters had to apply to Court of Protection, it would cost £400 and take a long time.