Vegan/Plant based.

I am yet to see a vegan or looks healthy or even happy for that matter. Why do they look so miserable?Think that their is a lot of superiority and being judgemental.

Not just vegans, eh?

Beeb

I know of vegans who are also motivated by the thought that a plant based diet is better for climate change.

Actually Beeb a solely plant based diet isn’t good for climate change. That would rely heavily on artificial fertiliser, the production and use of which is a major contributory factor to emissions.

The best diet if anyone is concerned about the human diet and climate change is an organic one, which includes animals in the natural food chain.

I’m not vegetarian but only eat meat occasionally these days. There’s a trend towards eating less meat and diary due to the health benefits, animal welfare and climate change issues. We’re lucky to be able to choose how we eat.

Vegans face hostility like accusations of ‘spouting rubbish’ before they even open their mouths. I couldn’t kill an animal. I loathe the treatment of animals in the meat and dairy industries and the cruelty of fishing. It follows that I really would like to open people’s eyes to the suffering that goes into a bacon butty, a ploughman’s lunch or a fish supper. But the rolling of eyes and derision that meets even the mildest of reasoning indicates to me that people don’t want to know the appalling conditions that provide their food. Yes, you can eat a fully balanced plant based diet, it takes a bit of effort, but better that than the squalid misery and terror that we put animals through. Can you imagine queuing to be slaughtered (cattle and chickens)? To be killed by poison gas (like pigs are)? Gasping for life under tons of your fellows as fish do? Humans, largely, dissociate themselves from the source of their food through buying animal ‘products’ in sanitised packaging at supermarkets. Most will not read a cosmetic, perfume, hygiene or washing product label to ascertain a) whether it contains animal derived ingredients or b) has been tested on animals. But, there, voicing these truths is called ‘spouting rubbish’ - or proselytising. To vegans, it is empathising, caring for other forms of life, having a conscience. “I use X because I’m worth it” smiles the celebrity. Unless your face cream displays the leaping bunny logo, no, you’re not.

Thank you, nightowl. To the critics, yes, vegans are aware of insect life, of introduced species, of artificial fertilisers. Not everything can be ‘fixed’ at once. We should work towards it. But while we have global corporations poisoning the air, earth and seas, more and more rapidly destroying the planet and any species that get in their way - fixing the problems becomes harder, daily.

And it's exactly that kind of preachy, hectoring type of lecture which puts people off.

Lathyrus3 I agree that organic produce is the way to go. Now more widely available but not always within everyone’s budget.
Nan99 it’s been an interesting thread. Thanks.

DS and DiL have been vegans for years and they do seem to be reasonably healthy. They don't answer when asked if they take supplements. They are in their 50s and have no children. DiL says she never liked meat and says she's lactose-intolerant. DS has gone along with it and says he's appalled at the way our food animals have been bred out of all recognition of their natural state.
I've got used to catering for them, but I did find it really annoying on holiday when they insisted on seeking out vegan restaurants and subjecting me and her parents to food we didn't particularly like.

I’d be interested to know how you would “fix” the need for artificial fertilisers *emilymaria”.

Just on a small scale, on my allotment, I can’t sustain fertility without manure from a local farmer.

If you know a way of doing that, especially with high intensity plant farming I’d love to know.

I accept that vegans feel people are not listening to their point of view but equally I feel that you perhaps don’t have any real under arable farming and somehow believe that plants will just grow. It is important to be realistic if you are claiming to “voice truth”, and be prepared to explain how you will “fix” the problems of a wide plant based agriculture.

Green manure?
Nitrogen fixers?
Composting?
Mulching?
Crop rotation?
Insectary plants?
Physical barriers?

I honestly don't think it's very different from what we do anyway when we grow organically, Lathyrus3

Yup do all of that, but it’s not enough without the manure in the third year of rotation.

I don’t use any type of artificial fertiliser or natural, like seaweed harvesting that is destroying natural environments.

Alfalfa?
Comfrey/nettles?

Comfrey and assortment of green manure😬

I have been a vegetarian for over 30years but I cook meat & fish for my husband. I live in farming country and would hate it if there no cows, sheep and there young. They play an important part in keeping our countryside the way it is. Everyone to there own and to get an all diet it takes a lot of thought, I cook all my own meals from scratch to try & avoid, salt sugar & UPF.

Lathyrus3

Comfrey and assortment of green manure😬

Yes

Would the Lord make us omnivorous if we were meant to be vegan? Our bodies need more than artificial vitamin supplements.

Having said that, our parents' diet was more veg and fruit with small amounts of meat, and little processed food.

I have just had a delivery from Asda what I have done is lots of things like bulgar wheat, cous cous, rice etc which I will cook then when cool put in containers in the fridge like sandwich boxes. Then when I want to do a meal I can dip into the containers then add vegan cheese or sandwich vegan ham etc plus salad or veg. I am also doing some kilner jars with overnight oats which I could also have as a supper if I don't feel like salad or a ready breakfast as I hate messing about in the morning

Thank you emilymaria. I don’t find that at all preachy or hectoring Viceversa, just heartfelt and truthful.

I don’t think people who eat meat or animal products (and I am part of that as a vegetarian) understand how distressing vegans find it when people, especially people they love, simply do not care about the suffering involved in our everyday lives.

nightowl

Thank you emilymaria. I don’t find that at all preachy or hectoring Viceversa, just heartfelt and truthful.

I don’t think people who eat meat or animal products (and I am part of that as a vegetarian) understand how distressing vegans find it when people, especially people they love, simply do not care about the suffering involved in our everyday lives.

I just feel you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, so to me, if you are basically telling people how awful they are unless they are vegan, it's hardly likely to endear them to your cause, is it?
What's so terrible about a ploughman's lunch anyway? Surely it's very easy to make that vegan, is it not?

ViceVersa

And it's exactly that kind of preachy, hectoring type of lecture which puts people off.

I agree.

I don't have to "imagine" death.

I have raised livestock from birth, killed it , taken it to slaughter, cooked it and eaten it. I fish, kill it and eat it. I've been with every dying pet as the vet ended their long life. I've also been present with people at the end of their lives, and as they died.

I know FROM DIRECT EXPERIENCE exactly what kind of life and death is best for my food, my livestock, my pets, my friends ,family .

Don't patronise with your wide-eyed hyperbolic "imaginings", Emiliamarie.

Real lives and real deaths are more varied than you think.

Why do the proselytising vegans on here only compare their diet with the the worst excesses of industrial cattle breeding and not the modern movement to grazing cattle from birth to death on unimproved meadow land rich in plant species, where if they are ill or injured they get medical treatment or are swiftly killed. Such farmers also ensure that their animals do not suffer in the slaughter process.

How does this compare with life in the wild where an animal that is ill or injured will be in pain and discomfort until it either starves to death or is predated by animals on the carnivore ladder who will attack it and tear it apart while still alive and conscious.

I am always amazed when I go into the supermarket how much food labelled suitable for vegans is pretending to be meat. Fake chicken and fake bacon abound. If you are so morally outraged by meat, why keep buying pretend meat?

If I were to judge what the average vegan eats based on what i see in food shops then they seem to live mainly on UPFs - and a diet high in UPFs is not good for anyone's health.

ViveVersa I agree you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Most vegans I know don’t make an issue of their beliefs unless someone asks them or it’s the topic of conversation, as on this thread. A thread named ‘Vegan/ Plant based does seem to invite this sort of discussion, so I think it’s then a bit unfair to accuse vegans (and those who are sympathetic, like me) of proselytising, preaching, exaggerating etc etc.

I cannot explain how hard it is for people with these beliefs to live in a world where meat is the norm, and I’m afraid if the subject is raised, then emotions will be raised also. Please, just cut vegans some slack.

nightowl

ViveVersa I agree you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Most vegans I know don’t make an issue of their beliefs unless someone asks them or it’s the topic of conversation, as on this thread. A thread named ‘Vegan/ Plant based does seem to invite this sort of discussion, so I think it’s then a bit unfair to accuse vegans (and those who are sympathetic, like me) of proselytising, preaching, exaggerating etc etc.

I cannot explain how hard it is for people with these beliefs to live in a world where meat is the norm, and I’m afraid if the subject is raised, then emotions will be raised also. Please, just cut vegans some slack.

I have absolutely no issue with vegans whatsoever, and as I said, I'm more than happy to accommodate any vegetarian or vegan who may be eating with us. However, on threads like this, you inevitably get one or two who paint the rest of us as terrible people for not sharing their views. So maybe those particular vegans could just get on with their lives and cut the rest of us some slack too, huh?

Did anyone see the Channel 4 documentary about fungi? I watched it last night.

Basically plant life on earth depends on a symbiotic relationship with fungi where nutrients are exchanged.

And fungi depends on the droppings of herbivores for its initial growth, cow oats were a specific breeding ground.

It set me wondering whether a vast reduction in herbivores could actually have serious consequences that haven’t been considered.

Mankind continually interferes with nature for its own desires and purposes with catastrophic results.

Is the push towards a plant based diet another example of meeting a human desire for more/healthier/moral food another example of putting human requirements before the planet as a whole? Another short term solution to the human overpopulation problem?

cow pats