Is it only in South Africa that state schools are failing......

Quite agree Banana about emulating Finland. As I understand it; comprehensives for all, solid investment over many years to improve standards for everybody, education a priority, education professionals respected, education not a political football. Suspect it also involves social justice and a far more even distribution of wealth across the population.
Bring it on.

Totally agree, Jess.

My DD1 has a media studies degree from Sussex Uni. My DH inspects media studies in schools and used to set and mark A levels. It is not always as easy as you think it is to teach or study!!!

DD worked in the NHS , first in the PR /complaints dept at St George's Sth. London then went to NICE when first established and helped to set up the Comms team there. She now works on a consultancy basis for medical charities pulling together medical research and putting into accessible forms for different people:professionals, sponsors, carers, patients etc as well as preparing campaigns etc. She is the main bread winner, her OH is a firefighter with a photography degree...used in his work for investigations etc.

The world had moved on from the 50s and what the current jobs market needs are greater range of skills than the traditional subjects alone offer.

London is awash with universities that were former polytechnics and often they were better as they were. Since the Blair mantra of 50% of school leavers should go to university, entry standards have been lowered to attract a different demographic. However, for those who like to have data backed up by percentages, the drop out rate is considerable, check out The Times University Guide. I agree with you JessM perhaps we should try to emulate Germany's education system, or better still Finland who I believe have the one of the highest attainments in literacy rates in the West. Frankly that's what matters above all else.

jess cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war? My dd is returning to her job as a teacher after half term. This is following maternity leave.
She has a degree in chemistry and loves teaching.
Both my children are scientists, I'm a which? Doctor

Why all of them going to uni? Good question. It think it is because Blair et al were convinced by the argument that a more educated workforce would generate wealth and prosperity. So they just opened the doors and let loose the dogs.
germany have a more sensible model with strong vocational qualifications - like we used to have in the days of polytechnics, HNDs.
It worries me too that some hard science depts have had to close, for lack of take-up e.g Chemistry!
I think the gov ought to subsidise some degree subjects .
My pet hate is degrees in subjects like holistic therapy, homeopathy etc - B. Scs no less. One in the eye for those of us who have studied proper science.

And that's another thing......! Why???

Media and arts are big business areas these days. So maybe it is too easy to dismiss them as useless. Never was entirely convinced that the world needed more philosophers myself - even though it has a long impeccable academic pedigree.
However if you are going to get 43% of school leavers going to uni, they cannot all be doing physics.

I'm not a statistician and cannot quote percentages off the top of my head. However. when I was checking out prospective universities, it did occur to me that some did seem to offer quite useless courses. My son is doing an old fashioned academic subject as are many of his peer group. However, I'd also say that a fair number of his fellow school mates went off to university to study film studies, photography, performing arts etc.

Oh, I love a good old grouse!

(Sorry!)

What percentage of British degrees are in that kind of 'subject'? What percentage of British degrees are 'old-fashioned academic' subjects, or even new academic disciplines? Verifiable numbers, please. Otherwise these statements just seem like grousing.

Anagram agree with much of what you say, we have slipped down World league tables in reading, maths and science. The graduates steaming out of universities in India and China sure as hell haven't spent 3 years studying media, photography or Amy Winehouse/David Beckham studies. How many times is it reported that a head of industry will say that school leavers and university graduates are not fit for purpose? I think Terry Leahy ex boss at Tesco said that school leavers often had to have remedial lessons in basic English and Maths

Perhaps my sons went to a pretty average primary school, but it seems to me that their children are learning more and learning better than they did at the same age. And they really enjoy school too.

Sorry I really cannot accept that this country can be remotely compared to South Africa.

bags similar experiences amongst this small group of GNers makes me think that the 'good old days' were not as good as we sometimes make them out to be! I failed 11+ so no grammar school for me but two top streams did Latin at my Sec Mod. Jane Packer was our PE teacher . She had extended leave to train and win an Olympic medal!

I had the same history teacher as you two! Thankfully, I had exceptionally good teachers for maths, geography, biology and English (guess what my favourite subjects were!). French teacher appalling for four years then had a change (put down from the top set) and learned more in two terms than I had learned in the entire previous four years so got top grade O level. All this in a grammar school too. Only managed Latin because my mum was able to teach me over the summer hols what the teacher only confused me with the rest of the time. And so on.

Absolute bitch of a PE teacher. Really nasty if you weren't one of the favoured.

Most of these 'teachers' had no training – just came straight from uni with a degree. They often ended up teaching a different subject. Not that that mattered if they were 'natural' teachers, but few are.

Things have definitely improved.

And schools are better equipped.

*jessM8..I agree. My history teacher did the same... we opened our text books.. she wrote a summary of the chapter on the board ... we copied it down and were told to 'learn' it for the exam. She was an Oxford graduate..she probably knew her history but no way could she teach it! Likewise my maths teacher .. had a masters in maths but had no idea how to teach it to anyone (me) who was not a natural mathematician. She used to shout at me and call me a cabbage Never questioned it when overnight I got homework 100% right after usually getting 50% at most. I had tracked down the answer book at Foyle's second hand bookshop! I failed my GCE Maths mock exam. I moved to a lower set and was taught by a good teacher and learned more maths in one term than I had in the previous three years!

The standards ofsted use to judge teaching are cranked up every 3 years or so. The teaching that was done in the schools I taught in during the 70s (including my own) would be now judged universally unsatisfactory - nowhere near borderline. Much of the teaching I received myself in grammar school, likewise. I remember a history teacher for instance - literally all he used to do was dictate notes. We went away and swotted up the content of the notes and passed our o levels. Bright children with parental support tend to achieve under any regime, however useless the teaching.
Yes those o levels were academic - but only a few people passed them. Most did not even sit them.

Anagram I cannot agree. I think standards are very similar. Employers in the 1800's were complaining in the same way current business leaders do. It's traditional to for the older generation to slate the next..makes them still feel useful and superior !
What young people leave school with now needs to be a very different set of skills than when I left in 1969. Of course there are some core skills that are needed that are the same but workplaces /jobs are different now and we need to be educating for the future not the present.
More school leavers go to HE so those in the work force at 18 may be different to the ones seeking school leaver work in the past.
I am tire of the continual 'knocking' of education, students and the teaching profession as though captains of industry where somehow the people with all the truth!

My GD applied for a job,was given an interview along with over 100 applicants and when she was told that she had been given the job,they also said that it was because of her 'very readable' writing. She has just been given a promotion.Obviously this employer valued 'basic writing skills'etc. I also think that textbooks have been superceded by the digital whiteboards and the internet,Mamie.

anagram if you ask people to tell you problems, they will. There used to be a huge number of jobs in the economy that did not require literacy and numeracy skills. A vast number of these have disappeared. So the jobs have changed a lot - and hence the requirements.
My sons went to school in the Thatcher years and I taught during them too.
I'll grant you that the qualifications are not so "academic" in style - but there are many more children leaving school with qualifications than there were then. And the standards of teaching expected of the teaching staff are way higher.
"my" school has been improving year on year in terms of numbers leaving with English and Maths and that trend will hopefully continue.

You may 'pish' all you want, but few employers would disagree with the premise that many school leavers and university graduates are joining firms with a lack of basic writing skills and a very scant knowledge of key principles of grammar, punctuation and spelling.

Yes. Hard evidence, please. Otherwise: pish!

Any hard evidence for that statement, Anagram?
I am not sure how far the number of text books is a relevant measure any more. I would think digital whiteboards and/or the internet resources would replace most of the sets of books of former years. If you can see a text on the digital whiteboard why would you all need a copy of the book?

Well, it depends what you class as value for money. The standard of education in general is lower now than it was in the days of Thatcher and Major.