Horrible people.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, the man responsible for the Innocence film that has been at the centre of all this uproar is facing up to two years in prison for some eight or so violations of his probation conditions – that he shouldn't use the internet or any alias without the permission of his probation officer. The judge reckons that he is high risk from the point of view of flight – you don't say – so banged him up. I should have thought leaving him loose on bail would have been a more severe and terrifying punishment.

Yes Greatnan agree with your last comment re. Blair what a strange sinister character he has become, he definitely sold his soul somewhere down the line, that's if he had one in the first place. I did post on another thread that when the Arab Spring started to gain momentum, Sadam could have well been overthrown by his own people without our interference and this would have been a better outcome all round.

But it did make sure Blair was regarded as a hero in the USA which resulted in some very lucrative lectures.

greatnan I agree. The sad part is that Iraq would doubtless have toppled Sadam itself by now and therefore the invasion was a waste of lives.

A lot will rest on the kind of government that eventually emerge in Libya, Syria, Egypt, etc., the countries affected by the 'Arab Spring'. In these Arab countries many are true freedom fighters wanting a more western-style democracy, better standards of living and freedom for their families to live their lives away from the constraints of fundamentalism. But there is the other faction who want to overthrow governments that toddy to the west. And these are the extremists.

So much depends on who wins the power struggle.

It's not over yet. What happens when the mighty Saudi Arabia starts to implode?

I have a feeling that events like the settlements in Palestine and the invasion of Iraq have given some kind of legitimacy to extremists who simply want to impose their own views on the world. It would probably have been better if they had not happened, but I think a crunch would have come eventually anyway. The modern world, with the new freedoms for women and homosexuals, is inimical to their thinking. They are men who have had total domination of women and they don't want to give it up.

The extremist islamists are the ones who make things worse, and they'll do that whatever anyone else does. When they start being violent because some idiot has said something stupid, or drawn a silly picture, or made a silly film, we have to keep saying No! You can argue with it but violence is unacceptable. If ee start telling the sillies, oh you can't say that, someone might be offended, we've given in to the thugs. That way hell lies.

Yes, we do have to stand up to extremists of all persuasion bags. The hard part, and this is especially true of extreme Islam, is how to do it without making the situation worse.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who's another ex-muslim who needs twenty-four hour protection from islamist thugs has written an article about how we should not try to appease extremism, but stand up fro what we believe in: freedom of speech for all.

move x

Thanks for your interest/concern Nana but its too serious to bare all on here.

So long as you can find your way home if you've movedalot!!

Why did you need something positive today move? Any special reason or just 'one of those days'?

Thanks Nana I'm Ok then! As my name sugests ................. which means I have had several different jobs and mixed with so many different people of different nationalities, travelled etc. As I write this and think of my life I am so much more confident about my future - assuming I have one! I needed somthing positive today.

No I don't think its inevitable move, I think some people are a bit like that when young and then for various reasons get worse as they get older. It's all to do with having an open mind and a positive attitude. It helps too if you've lived in the 'real' world, mixing with a wide variety of people, cultures, opinions, etc and also if you've been able to accept new challenges in your life.

Oh Nana you are so right. Do you think we will all end up like that if we live long enough? I have a friend who thinks her Mum is a pain in the bum because she is very entreched in all aspects of her life. I suspect my own father would hav ebeen like that if he had lived long enough. Can we live in hope that we have learned from such people and won't allow ourselves to become like that?

* movedalot* if only that was universally true, but as you say 'most of us' sadly not all. Yes, old age can bring wisdom in those who have the propensity and opportunity to learn from experience as they mature. I am often delighted by the way opinions are expressed and the depth of understanding behind many posts on these forums. But sadly there are a minority of bitter old folks with closed minds. I know a few and they seem to get more entrenched in their narrow little world as they get older.

This link gives Yasmin Alibhai Brown's very bleak view of the current situation -

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mobs-in-the-middle-east-salman-rushdies-new-book-and-how-progressive-islam-fell-to-the-barbarians-8143053.html

Greatnan I think most of us are far more thoughtful when we are older but our maturity helps us realise we don't know everything about everything and allows us to respect others' views. When we are young most of us see things rather more simplistically and think we have all the answers to whatever it is that has become our cause.

I regret to admit that when I was a teenager I did not feel passionately about very much - my generation appeared to be hedonistic, as often happens after a war.
I have become far more aware and interested in ethical matters as I have matured.

Young men and women will always feel passionate about something, be it politics, religion, the environment or whatever. It is normal to be so as we mature and in later years we can laugh at the blinkered stance we took in our youth. The dreadful thing is that some fanatics know this and take advantage to brainwash people who would otherwise never hurt a soul.

I was also intrigued speck by your phrase "If you are unhappy about that be firm, unambiguous and uncompromising in your stance." How?
jo4 the trouble with any knee jerk decision to kill anyone is that even if you don't have a moral objection to killing people you disagree with, you might kill the wrong person/people. The identity of the film perpetrators is still not clear.
But if you believe in the rule of law, then it is never ok to even suggest that people should take the law into their own hands is it. Whether or not you agree with capital punishment.

Whatever nana meant, I am sure we would all be grateful if you expanded your comments. We have no idea what you think we should be doing to combat the imposition of Islam througout the world.

As you obviously realise, but choose to misunderstand, speck, I was referring to your use of 'opinion and diplomacy' which to me - and, I suspect, others - was somewhat obscure.

anodomini, sorry if the use of the word `dept` is confusing. I used the word in the loose, colloquial sense rather than meaning some official department.

nana, what do you mean by `if you dare`. Please explain what you believe I have in mind that requires a `dare.