Jimmy Savile

I am very willing to be convinced Greatnan and jO5

My point was that we cannot know for sure whether allegations, whether from 'recovered memories' or not, are definitely false.

Yes, unfortunately families are torn apart.

Some years ago I did jury service where a family member was accused of abusing his grandchildren (fondling). It was a harrowing experience just seeing what had happened to a once close and happy family.

The accused denied the accusations throughout but was found guilty.

Of course there are incompetent, unscrupulous counsellors about but the vast majority try to work in an ethical, proper manner. A good counsellor would never lead or make suggestions.

Too much absolute certainty bothers me.

Try looking at 'South Ronaldsay Child Abuse Scandal'.

True petallus.

Most people thought it was pretty ludicrous to suggest that an elderly minister was prancing around in the nude in the Orkneys in the depths of Winter.
Petallus, if you don't want to be convinced, that is up to you - we can only give you the facts.

I knew the girl was inventing one story, because I knew where she was when the abuse was supposed to be taking place. She appeared several years later on some TV programmes, talking about all the abuse she said she had suffered. She was extremely convincing. None of the house fathers she accused had ever had problems with other children and it started to ring a bell with social services when she made accusations about every single home.

Satanic abuse allegations were investigated several times and not a shred of evidence was found. There are, of course, some African Christian sects now operating in London which purport to be able to beat the devil out of people.

There are still some very dodgy people around, supposedly treating patients who actually need proper counselling or therapy. Valerie Sinason of The Clinic for Disassociative Studies in London is one such 'expert' and several families have been torn apart by members claiming to have 'recovered' memories of abuse. Carmanthenshire Council has close links with the US Christian fundamentalist Mercy Missions, which run homes where emotionally disturbed young women are 'treated' with techniques such as intensive bible study and the casting out of demons. Two of their homes in Sydney were closed when the Sydney Morning Herald exposed their cruel and medically unproved techniques. More on this subject can be found in Private Eye dated 2nd November.

Also, why ludicrous rather than just untrue? Are we saying that it is ludicrous to suppose that any human beings would do such a thing or just that those particular people would?

Maybe in that particular case. On the other hand we castigate those who ignore possible abuse instead of doing something about it and knowing the allegations were ludicrous was with hindsight.

The satanic abuse allegations did turn out to be ludicrous. After families went through much torment.

Greatnan one of your previous posts from 3/11 has been on my mind.

You mention the girl who accused three social workers of abusing her and how this turned out to be false.

In a case like this, surely it must be possible that the accusations are actually true but that the girl became confused about dates, intimidated by lawyers when being questioned and so on? Having a troubled past with a mother who was a prostitute I can see would also make her a less credible witness, but should it?

Of course you would know more about this particular case than I, but it does remind me of points that have been made about the difficulty of knowing for sure what happened. We have said that abusers often come over as caring and innocent victims of wrongful accusation.

Incidentally, I do not know why you call satanic abuse accusations ludicrous. I've always thought it is very likely that this kind of thing takes place.

And as for counsellors planting suggestions in women's minds that they have been abused when they have not, this might happen occasionally but not all the time. Traumatic memories can be blocked and then emerge at a later time, sometimes, but not only, during counselling. The concept of 'false memory' became a standard defence to discredit women making accusations against their abusers.

Having said all that, I do agree that some people make false accusations for attention or monetary gain. The problem is knowing which ones.

There are quite a few politicians, past and present, who have been known to assault children. Evidenced accounts abound on the internet. High profile politicians and celebrities are named and cross-referenced with investigated incidents. It concerns me that the police have abundant evidence, but for political reasons may yet again be prevented from using it. I hope that the re-investigation of the North Wales abuse in care homes is done thoroughly this time. So much corruption that has tentacles reaching into child disappearances and deaths.

Yes. Just because the BBC did their usual with that programme back then, certainly doesn't have to mean there is no truth in the rest of the rumours.

JO5 thanks for the link, it made very uncomfortable reading.
But I come back to the thought that all paedophiles are experts at dissembling.
I'm glad that the N.Wales cases are being re-examined in the light of current thought, we may get to the actual truth.

I didn't know that, Greatnan. What a horrible man.

No wonder he got away with it - apparently when David Steel was told that Cyril Smith had been assaulting children in the home he helped to set up, his comment was 'Well, he only smacked a few bare bottoms'. Can you imagine the humiliation those helpless children felt?

It must be so hard to sort it all out.

Jimmy Sovile

I am quite sure that many people are claiming to have been abused either for attention or because they hope to get compensation. I taught a girl who had accused several house-fathers in the various care homes where she had lived of sexually abusing her. The effect on their careers and marriages was devastating, even though there was no truth in any of the allegations. She had me fooled completely until it was proved that she was not even in certain homes at the times she said she had been abused. She had had a very troubled childhood -her mother was a prostitute and 'M' would come home from school to find her plying her trade in the living room. She was au fait with all the various sexual activities and this gave credence to her stories. It was quite possible that some of her mother's clients had abused her, but not any member of the social work team.

I vividly remember the 'Satanic abuse' scandals and the brutal way in which children were snatched from their parents because of the ludicrous belief of one or two social workers that the children were being ritually abused. There then followed the issue of 'false memories' - a so-called expert would take the children back in time and 'remind' them that they were abused.

I have no doubt that Savile and others in high places did abuse large numbers of young people and I hope the false allegations will not distract the police from pursuing the real culprits.

Hmm...food for thought there. Thanks for that link, jingl. Not as straightforward as it might seem, then.

to you jO5.

Don't read it then Marelli. Don't put yourself through it.

jO5....I'm scared to look at the link. I've a feeling I know what might be there, but I can't look at it.

jings

BBC drama Care

Warning - it is horrifying.

No wonder girls didn't report Savile -the headmistress of the home for 'difficult' girls has been interviewed and actually said the girls were asking for it and they were 'no angels'. They were disturbed young women, aged 15 to 18 , and she should have been protecting them.
She comes across, even at 91, as absolutely vile simply anxious to protect herself.
I refused to witness girls of 16 being strapped (on the hand) for smoking when I taught in a Catholic High school in 1973. There was always some underlying hint of sexuality in all corporal punishments as far as I was concerned.

... and now the North Wales abuse scandal rears its ugly head once more!

Did anyone see the superb but incredibly moving play: 'Care'?
It starred the immensely talented Stephen Macintosh and was screened in 2000. I think it was based on the N.Wales case (which wasn't really concluded satisfactorily in my opinion anyway!)
The final scene was so moving!