The Badger Cull

That's what I would have thought, merlot – about farmers not producing more meat than the market demands, which is why I asked the question. Some previous posts seemed to be suggesting that the calves were killed just for the hell of it. I thought that unlikely. So what is done with the calves after the knacker's yard? Is the meat and leather used? It would be silly not to.

Difficult one for me as I live surrounded by beef farmers and have seen and heard their serious concerns about bovine TB. My instinct is that it is a shame to cull wild creatures on principle - but many people's livelihoods depend on a healthy herd and I am also concerned for them. Mind you, beef (and any meat) is an expensive way of obtaining protein - to individual's pockets and to the environment.

It's a few years since I was involved with dairy farming, Bags. My DH was the arable manager and was not directly involved in the dairy unit but as a way of earning some dosh while my children were small, I reared the dairy calves (mostly Fresians). Only female calves can be added to the herd so male calves have to be disposed of in some way. The farm I worked on used to send them to the knacker's yard unless they were from a good breeding line and might show promise as a breeding bull. The meat from the calves used to go for dog food and the bones to the glue factory.
There is now a move to promote rose veal where calves are not slaughtered until approx 9 months old which I think is a far better option than the waste of a male calf at birth. I am not a vegetarian but am concerned about animal welfare and veal has had such a bad press in the past it's going to take a while to convince the British public that this is a better option.

Beef farming is a completely different industry.

Rose veal is very pleasant to eat, more flavour than white veal but subtler than beef steaks. If more of us were to eat it, even occasionally, it would cut down the waste of slaughtering male dairy calves at birth.

Merlotgran- exaclty what happens here. People need to be better educated about veal, and regulations adhered to, and then veal meat will become popular again. The cruelty of the crate system put so many people off.

Killing all males at birth in dairy herds is not acceptable imho, and neither is sending them on awful long journeys to Italy (:

Merlotgran, I am afraid that there is still a lot of cattle movements of herds, some legal, some not, I am afraid. Cattle from the SW were TB if a big problem, were allowed to move to the NE to replace herds lost to foot and mouth. Other herds are sold and moved on at a low price quickly ... just before TB testing is due!

The meat isn't wasted if dogs eat it. The bones aren't wasted if they are used to make glue. I like rose veal too. Used to get it occasionally from Helen Browning's farms when she did postal deliveries.

Any body fancy changing the food chain so that there is very little milk for humans, or beef in it? Or do we need them to provide the energy for us to moan about non-fatal cruelty elsewhere.

I wonder how they are going to shoot the badgers at the sett?? Anybody with any experience at all of badgers will know that if you want to badger watch you have to be absolutely quiet, sit downwind in dark non-rustly clothes. When badgers first come out of the sett, they spend some time with just their snout and ears out, listening, smelling, watching (for shapes moving, they actually have very bad eyesight) - if there is any doubt at all, they will retreat and NOT come out. If by any chance they manage to shoot one- I can assure you none of the others will come out- and in successive days, they will be extra extra cautious - knowing that one of them is missing and having heard the commotion and smelt the blood- heard the dogs, etc. It's going to be a very long drawn process . To think that the badgers will just come out to be shot- shows how little they know about their behaviour .

I wonder how many people will go and sit on the setts to prevent this - if it was one of 'my' badger sett- I would.

Sorry about Smiley- inappropriate and an error - it is not funny at all, sadly

There are no badgers in the area of Scotland where I live and one sees fields full of thriving young beef cattle hereabouts, so I feel a bit remote from all this. The transfer of the disease does not appear to be clear-cut from what I've read so I'm glad to hear of a pause in the cull proceedings.

Many of the badger setts I know are so close to habitations btw- because housing estates were built very near recently. So people and children will be asleep, or watching TV, and men in balaclavas with huge lamps will be less than 100 yards, shooting with powerful rifles

From this evening's news it looks a if the cull will be called off for the time being as it isn't economically viable. A massive miscalculation about badger numbers means that the cost to farmers of killing the requisite percentage is too great.

good

Granjura, I agree with some of what you say but not sure about one or two points:

Cattle would not have been moved after foot and mouth without a movement licence and this still applies at any time. The rules would have been very stringent after such a devastating blow to the farming industry.

Cattle can not be moved 'on the quiet' just before TB testing is due. They're not even allowed to go to slaughter without a movement order. Cattle are tagged and have records. You can't sell a whole herd without somebody noticing and no farmer would want to support an illegal herd. What's he going to do with it?

I don't dispute your knowledge of badgers but if they are as timid as you say, huge lamps would be a hinderence. This is not a lamping excercise like fox and rabbit culls.

Movement of cattle law will be changed from January, because even Defra and the Government agree they are not tight enough. Most farmers act within the law, but some do not.

From the Defra site on badger cull methods:

Lamping
19. The course must explain the technique, regulations and conditions concerning the use
of artificial lighting. This includes:
a. The need for landowner’s permission when shooting (preferably in writing);
b. Practical application of lamping;
c. The need for additional people when using artificial light;
d. Clarity on who must be licensed according to the tasks carried out;
e. Prohibited, authorised (licensed) and allowed (no specific licence needed) methods
of taking/killing badgers;

Use of Night Vision Equipment
20. The course must explain the technique, regulations and conditions concerning the use
of night vision (NV) equipment. This includes:

• Use at a range of no more than 60m over a fixed bait station, which is known to be
a safe, secure shooting location;
• Use from a fixed, preferably elevated, shooting position;
• Only Generation 2 or 3 Night Vision equipment with IR illumination must be used as
a rifle scope (or comparable digital NV equipment with IR); and
• A separate NV spotting device (also with IR illumination) and/or lamp must be used
by a second person to scan the wider area for unexpected non-targets, e.g.
livestock and members of the public.
It follows that night shooting using Night Vision equipment, as with use of a spotlight and
rifle, will also require a minimum team of two people.

Yes, granjura Defra

Our posts crossed.

I would have thought modern night vision equipment negates the use of high powered lamps given that badgers are so sensitive.

I am surrounded by badger setts but in 30 years have only heard and not seen them( OH has) If they ever try that on the setts surrounding my house I will lie naked across the grassy bank

If you read the link I posted, you will see that lamps may be used to ensure that there are no people in the area who could be injured or killed - partly because some of the setts are so close to housing, and mainly because of the planned protests by many in the cull area.

Whether or not you, I, we, agree or not about the right of people to try and protest and do everything they can to stop the cull - it is a reality that many intend to do so. Which makes shooting with night vision solely on the badger/s so dangerous.

Badgers have been feeding every night in my garden for years, but have failed to appear for the last two nights. I am worried that they have been killed, but have heard no shots. the farmland to the rear has beef cattle, but I understand there is no history of TB in the herd.
I hope I shall see and hear the badgers again soon!

Are you in one of the cull areas Shysal? I am afraid lampers and some farmers + terriermen, etc, may well be using this situation to take matters in their own hands in other areas too. Certainly there has been an increase in badger digging, in many areas.

Does anyone know FOR SURE whether the cull has started or not?

No granjura but there was speculation in the newspapers this week and an assessment that each badger-kill would cost £1,000. I have no idea how they arrived at this sum but clearly it's completely uneconomical. It's something to do with hugely underestimating badger numbers in the trial areas. Sounds like a typical government initiative to me.