Scottish Referendum

JessM …and, as several people noticed at the time, Northern Irish athletes didn't get a mention in Team GB.

Yes wheniwas the English do have a lot to answer for in terms of assuming all citizens are English. And southerners to boot. A long and inglorious heritage.
I thought the Olympics did a lot to bring us together and to reclaim the flag from the extreme (English) right wing.
Of course us welsh did not even make it onto the flag, something that I noted when I was a Brownie and had to learn about its components.

I can't see why anyone should be proud of being any nationality simply as an accident of birth.

Wheniwasyourage But the proms are English; they were created in London. I don't understand why that comment upset you.

Nfk, of course you're welcome here. You say you were proud to be British; so was I (my mother is half English) but 2 things made me think about that. The first was many, many years ago when I was listening to the last Night of the Proms and enjoying the excitement of it and Richard Baker said what a great English occasion it was. I still remember the sudden feeling of being unwelcome in what I had thought was my own country. The second was, of course, Mrs Thatcher, who did more for Scottish independence than anyone else, ever.

Granny23, thank you for explaining so many things so much better than I could and in such a calm and sensible manner. I fear that the arguments will get quite heated over the next 2 years, but let's hope that GNers can remain friendly and interested in each others' views.

Nfk How many politicians does it take to run the UK? I honestly don't think we want of more of them than we have already.

Having read all what's been said by people far more knowledgeable than I, it seems that if the result is yes it's highly unlikely to actually happen in any of our life times. It's far too complex. By the time those in charge have agreed to joint defence, fishing rights, currency etc, etc we'll practically be back where we started. It'll just have kept a lot of civil servants employed chasing their tails.

(What if we all had independence with our own parliaments or assemblies and then joined up to share some stuff like defense in a sort of united kingdom?)

Elegran, as far as I remember, James VI had good cause to detest the Scottish nobility who had been his 'minders'. His ascension to the English throne was an escape for him.

I assume, an independent Scotland would remain in the Commonwealth. All the different parts of the UK - even the Isle of Man and the different Channel Islands - have their own teams in the Commonwealth Games.

Nfk - understandably, Glaswegian is a foreign tongue to you, as was the English of West Norfolk to us when we went to live there. I'd also have a problem with the dialect of Aberdeenshire, being a native of SW Scotland. Long live diversity.

A pity thatMary's son was more taken with ruling from Westminster than with dividing his time and attention equally between his two realms. He could have made his Scottish capital equal to his centralised English one and Scotland more wealthy, and saved a lot of hassle.

HM was crowned in Scotland after the big 'do' in Westminster Abbey, so she is Queen of Scotland. The 'Honours of Scotland' are very fine crown jewels, kept in Edinburgh Castle. The Union of the Crowns in 1603 was a takeover by Scotland of the English throne!

The Queen would still be Head of State of an independent Scotland. The move towards a republic, if that's what Salmond wants, wouldn't be achieved through independence.

Thank you for the informative answers granny23. Electricity easy to export, water less so, unless you happen to be in the severn catchment in mid wales etc with a large english conurbation downstream.
Would E continue to be queen of both I wonder?
Not sure that there would be a quick and amicable division of assets in this case. Still wondering what they might be.

When someone says does history really matter, you have only got to look at how chippy some folk can be in other parts of the British Isles can be over what took place often many centuries ago!

The border for territorial waters conventionally follows a straight line from the land border which lies at a sharp angle between Scotland and England. Would all the oilfields be on the Scottish side? Just curious.

I thought that the EU "master-of-ceremonies" – both his name and his title escape me – had already state categorically that an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU if it wanted to be a member. Also don't all new members now have to sign up to the euro?

Lily I am in agreement with you that as Scottish independence would affect the other countries of the Union constitutionally, all should be able to vote on it. Would unilateral independence even be legal? I suspect that David Cameron, who is opposed to breaking up the Union, would be most unwilling to allow the English to vote because it is more than likely that they would vote in favour of Scottish independence. I think that there is a lot of simmering resentment towards the Scots among some English people.

I am yet to be convinced that any referendum or plebiscite is a worthwhile idea. So much depends on how the question is put - and then you are asking that question of all those who neither know nor care what the right answer should be!

I agree, Elizabeth had to get rid of Mary there was too much intrigue and plotting around her and she had to go to keep the peace. Making James heir sort of made that right.

I hope you're right, Granny23. I don't have any idea whether Scotland would be better off as an independent nation or whether England and Wales would be better off. I suspect we are all dancing to the EU tune and the United Nations of Europe will be nearer than the next corner if Scotland votes for 'independence'. And my view on Mary is that as along as she lived, she was a focus of possible rebellion. She may not have been responsible but in the 16th century that argument probably didn't count for much.

Thanks for the explanation, 23. In the light of that, AS looks like an even wilier blighter than I'd realised [little devil emoticon]. It's quite a relief to be able to discard the DC respect even sooner than anticipated .

Granny23 I never felt antagonistic towards Scotland until before all this independence stuff started up and was proud to be British. But now it's as if my sister had turned against me. We went through a bad patch with Wales and they now have their own assembly (which we don't) but we're still family. It seems to me Mr S wants to remove Scotland from the family.

All I know is I'm glad I didn't live in those times. I saw part of the family tree programme last week where Celia Imrie found out that one of her ancestors was sentenced to being hung drawn and quartered because of something he said in an ale house. Or if I did live then it would've been better to have been a peasant [which I would have been!]. Anyways; whatever the history books wrote about Mary, Sandy Denny put forward her case most beautifully in Fotheringay .

Nothing wrong with a cloth cap, nor a whippet.

As to Mary and Elizabeth - it depends on whose biography you read!

..I've got the whippet, though....

I thought Elizabeth had Mary executed, not because she was next in line to the throne [as was, subsequently her son] but because she was a constant threat to Elizabeth, her life and her monarchy, and was plotting against her. And, as for people in Scotland feeling that they are perceived as Brigadoonish, I fear that most of us in England who live north of Watford are also regarded in the same way .[well, perhaps not Brigadoonish but clothcap'n'whippet'ish]. I often feel that the English are the most despised race on the planet, especially on Eurovision Song Contest night !!

Crimson Yes, an independent Scotland would, like Croatia et al, be entitled to enter the Eurovision song contest. I expect our entries would be as successful as our football team is on the international stage.. Poor wee Ireland has managed to host the contest on several occasions. I might point out that Scotland had to fund 9 - 10% of the London Olympics whether we could afford it or not.

Lily I think that all young people in Scotland have a fair understanding of Scottish history now that it is taught in Scottish Schools and Universities. When I was at school we were taught so called British History, which was actually English History until the Union. It was left to my Father, to point out to me that the wonderful and glorious Elizabeth I that we were taught about had Mary, Queen of Scots executed because Mary was next in line to the English Throne.

Why is a desire for Scotland to be in charge of her own affairs - 'narrow nationalism', whilst a desire for the UK rather than the EU or the USA to be in charge of its own affairs 'good' nationalism.

Dumpling Of course you would be welcome in Scotland.............. well, on second thoughts,maybe not if you go around saying you will be glad to see the back of us. If England wishes to build nuclear power stations, at ast expense, rather than taking the cheaper option of importing power from their next door neighbours they will be cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Thanks for that Elegran. It is a really beautiful country but for me definitely foreign parts, well just Glasgow really, as I can't understand a word! The same applies to Northumberland!

Scotland is not alone in feeling isolated from Westminster. That applies to everywhere outside Greater London. Here in North Norfolk we are so much closer but largely ignored. There are large swathes of countryside with no mobile reception, let alone Broadband and the only trains we have are steam. Perhaps we should try for independence!