Sad death of Hindu mother in Catholic Ireland

www.facebook.com/events/243742145755096/

There is a demonstration planned in Dublin this afternoon. Any Dublin GNners?

I understand you are not sticking up for them VQ but the issue would seem to be, if I understand correctly, that the Irish law is this, as explained in wikipedia:

At independence from the UK in 1922, the Offences against the Person Act 1861 remained in force, maintaining all abortions to be illegal and subject to punishment
then
In 1983 the Constitution of Ireland was amended to add the Eighth Amendment, which asserted that the unborn had an explicit right to life from the time of conception.
then after the 14 year old rape victim case, the constitution was amended as I posted above. But there is no "abortion law" at all. Just the 1861 law. So they have never actually passed a law to help doctors make a decision.
Time Irish women started demanding one I think.

I'm not making any excuses for the archaic and frankly misogynistic teachings of the Catholic Church. It's just that the hospital said it happened because it was a Catholic country but actually it happened because someone who framed a law that was alledgedly based on Catholic teachings got it wrong. I know the teaching is complicated but it doesn't say much for Irish civil servants, lawyers and politicians if they fail to grasp what A level students are taught in this country. My daughter brought this to my attention when she was 17 and studying Ethics as part of her Catholic based A level Religious Education. If a 17 year old can discover and understand this then those who framed the law surely should have done.

I would like to point out yet again that I'm not a Catholic apologist. There is so much wrong with the Catholic Church that it bears virtually no resemblance to the teachings of the man it's supposed to follow. It's just that this time, although Ireland is a Catholic country, it's not the teachings of the Church that killed the poor young woman but the failings of the Irish law.

I agree - if the "party line" of the Catholic Church is contained in the link you posted VQ how on earth do you, or they, expect non-theologians to hack their way through the undergrowth and understand what they are trying to say?
The trouble is that once you adopt the moral stance that the "soul" comes into being at the moment the sperm busts into the egg, you have an ethical problem with abortion. Because how are you, or anyone else, to decide that one "soul" is more worth keeping on planet earth than another "soul".

But along with the CC's opposition to contraception their stance on abortion appears, from where I am standing, to be a long-term cynical plan to ensure the maximum numbers of catholic births. More "souls" for heaven (sometimes rather rapidly, if the body was born into a third world slum) and if they happen to survive, more money in the coffers. Little catholic lives are very cheap if their mothers happen to be very poor. Doesn't matter about them getting the inside track to the gates of heaven - so why is it such a big deal to preserve the life of a foetus? And a foetus that is not even destined for catholic baptism!
As someone who does not believe in the existence of a spirit or soul of any kind, i think abortion is unpleasant and better avoided for all kinds of reasons, but when the chips are down, if it is a choice between a fully formed adult with an intellect and a personality and a potential person in the form of a foetus. No contest. But do they come out and say very clearly and concisely "the catholic teaching is to prioritise the mother and, if it is necessary to protect the mother from death or serious damage, a doctor should sacrifice the foetus"
And are you suggesting VQ that the stance of successive Irish governments on this is not driven by Catholic teachings? Or is it just a misogynistic conspiracy using Catholic teaching or lack of clarity as a convenient excuse?

Surely, if the teaching were to be made less opaque it would be less likely to cause such awful tragedies. I have read the 'information' several times and it is incredibly hard to grasp.
How much longer can the catholic church hold on to the loyalty of intelligent people?

Has the Catholic church in Ireland expressed any regrets?

I keep pointing out that under the Catholic Church diktats she could have had an abortion in these circumstances. I rarely defend the Catholic Church but this time it's the Irish government that's to blame not the Church.

I'm so angry at the avoidable death of this young woman that I can barely articulate what I want to say.

Aside from possible medical negligence, misinterpretation of the law, human error, etc., we know the real reason this poor girl was in this position was because of the diktats of the RC church, that still hold sway in this day and age.

Nanadog the answer is not a definite yes but a probably. It should have been combined with an evacuation of the uterine contents.

I am outraged that women's rights are still so limited in many countries. Sad about this young woman who came to a sad end, whatever the cause.
Will be angry if investigations reveal that it is not "mere" misfortune or medical negligence that caused her death.

I don't see how one can fail to feel outraged at the system that permitted this tragedy and sad for the impact on the family.

It is all of those things. I am sure her family are very sad. Like you, I am enraged.

I'm not being critical of the Original Post, but the word "sad" in it riles me every time.

It's not sad, it's appalling and a disgrace for the reputation of Ireland. Truly shameful. Not sad in my book. Grrrr.

If a mother at any stage in pregnancy is admitted with ruptured membranes there is a risk of an infection travelling from her vagina into her uterus. This is one reason why women get induced - membranes ruptured, clock ticking. The foetus does not have an immune system at this stage so would not be able to deal with any bacteria via this route. Mother's immune system of only limited help at this point in the proceedings.
Whether antibiotics work or not depends on whether they hit the particular bug that is causing the infection. Not all antibiotics kill all bacteria. Think of MRSA - very difficult to kill. Broad spectrum antibiotics are used sometimes in hospital in the hope of zapping whatever is causing the problem. But they are not without side effects and don't always work.
Viable foetus at 17 weeks - not a chance. The youngest ever 2 were at 21 weeks - a whole month on. Even at 24 weeks it is about 50% - very touch and go with many dying or being disabled if they do survive.
So presumably the doctor felt that because of the law all they could do was wait until the foetus either aborted or died and give antibiotic cover while they waited. But until enquiries are in we do not really know sequence of events.
(Not a medic but consider myself a medical writer these days, and ex NCT teacher, so i had to absorb the textbooks at the time.)

Would the administration of prophylactic antibiotics at the beginning have made any difference?
Medics please answer.

Trouble is they have now settled into this "neither fish nor fowl" situation where it is not legal in Ireland. But - big but - (for women who an afford it) they can come over to UK on Ryanair and have a private abortion. And it is not illegal in Ireland to do this, or to help someone to do this.

This was one of the issues that made me an atheist at an early age. We were discussing in RE what should happen in, say a road accident involving a heavily pregnant woman, where doctors could save the life of only one. The nun teaching us said very firmly that the baby must be saved because it had not been baptised, even if the mother had other children. What a load of bovine faeces - even at 12 I could work that one out.
When are Irish women going to speak up and tell the men who run their lives what they think of them?

In 1950 in this country, my father was asked to sign a form saying that, if a choice had to be made, he wished the life of his unborn child (me) to be saved at the expense of my mother's.

A young woman has died.
Unnecessarily.
She wasn't listened to.
It should have been anticipated that there was at least possibility of infection.
A 13 month old baby died in Birmingham Children's Hospital.
Unnecessarily.
The mother wasn't listened to.
Baby ought to have been transferred to intensive care and wasn't.

Why do lessons keep having to be learned? Can't people figure things out before tragedy strikes?

I think they were eventually. But who knows. You cant believe everything you read in papers. There are two enquiries going on. I guess her medical notes will tell what happened.

No, but prophylactic antibiotics should surely have been given.

A 17 week pregnancy with ruptured membranes and a dilated cervix is going to produce a viable foetus is it. Antibiotics or no antibiotics.

If her membranes had ruptured and she was fully dilated and in danger of infection and septicaemia, surely at some time inthe four days before she died they could have foreseen trouble and given her precautionary antibiotics until they were certain that all was well?

Yes but the doctor may have felt he/she was breaking the law. Abortion is against the law in Ireland despite the constitutional amendments listed above.
And why have they not passed a law that clearly says: A doctor may perform an abortion in order to safeguard the mother? Because they have misinterpreted the (convoluted) Catholic position on this, is it VQ.
I say convoluted based on the link you posted. Which, as my Nana would have said, "disappears up its own a***"

The problem has arisen this time because the people who framed the law based on Catholic teaching totally misunderstood the teaching. The Church doesn't say no to abortion it just sets very strict guidelines. This poor lady could have had an abortion and it wouldn't have gone against Catholic teaching.

I'm not saying Catholic Church is right....in fact I believe that every woman has the right to choose....but in this case the law does not reflect Church teaching.