Why it's important to add your voice to the scout consultation on non-believers

Many thanks, Bags - I can assure you it will be worn with (non-gay) pride

www.inclusivescouting.net/

Here you are, 23. Glad to see the word is spreading.

Bags I have been talking today with DD1 about the Scouts as DGS is due to start in February. Have already sent her the consultation link but having been trying without success to find the bit where you talked about the inclusion badge which I believe you got from America? She would like to get one, not for DGS but for her partner, a life long Scout (with no religion) who will be signing up to the local troup as an adult leader when his son joins. Can you supply a link where we can buy the inclusion badge? Thank you.

Then it has no right to insist on a religious element to the promise, in my view.

SA says it is not a religious organisation.

Yes. Who exactly is insisting that religion continues to be included in the promise? Surely the Scout movement isn't a religious one? Or is it?

We talked to DD about the scout promise before she made it. We said it was up to her to interpret what duty to the queen and duty to god meant. We made some suggestions – stuff like being a good citizen and meaning "good" when you say "god". That about covers it.

But you shouldn't have to "interpret". Anyone can promise to do their best to be kind and helpful and to keep the scout law. It's enough.

Christian God and Allah are the same God. the Old Testament one.
I remember my DS1 agonising over this promise 30 years ago - really unfair of the scout movement to put 11 year olds through painful moral dilemmas do we think?
Ah bless him. Funny being a mum isn't it. Remembering who they were 30 years ago

I have always thought there should be just one promise with the same wording for all scouts. By having God or Allah or whatever it only stresses the differences. Scouting should unite all children whatever their nationality or religion. This is especially important these days when there can be children of several religions (including atheism) within one troupe.

I also think it's time guides merged with scouts. It doesn't seem fair that girls can join either group while boys only have scouting.

Thank you for joining in, folks. There is always some support for a good cause on gransnet

Great response, Granny23.

Go Granny23 - Great response.

Done.

Bags I have completed the consultation. Here is what I put on the religion bit:

"In an increasingly secular society, I feel that Scouting will fail in its duty to young people if it does not accept that it is entirely possible to live a good principled and moral life without having any belief in the supernatural. Scouting currently has the opportunity to offer a moral code, based on respect and responsibilities to Young People who may be floundering in a vaccum created by the decline of religious belief."

I talk about Christmas dinner, going home for Christmas, etc. It is the generally accepted term for the holiday.

I think it's a shame we take these things so heavily these days. We've managed all these years. I don't for the life of me think the kids came to any harm either way. Still, it's the way things are.

I think most people do call it christmas, gracesmum. There are only a few who don't. Here at least. I think Happy Holidays is more common in the States because, mainly, of the Jews.

But the get back to thread, the silly thing is that there are lots of atheists in the scouting movement already. If you admit to being an atheist you can still be an associate member (i.e. they'll accept your help); if you call yourself a humanist, even an atheist one, they'll let you be a 'full' member but they won't call you a leader even if you are one. Petty, discriminatory and prejudiced. The Scout Association should be ashamed of itself for not getting over this before now. Fat lot of use their proclaimed values are!

Not quite what I meant Bags although I take your point re Saturnalia (Easter was what??) It is the total blandness or PCness of "Happy Holidays" that gets me - the secularisation and materialism seems to be part of the territory.
Why not call it Christmas? We don't send "holidays" cards, eat "holidays" cake/pudding or buy "holidays " wrapping paper, do we? And if it is OK (which it is) to recognise Hanukah, Dewali, Thanksgiving (in the US) et al,what is wrong with wishing people a Happy Christmas? Even "Compliments of the season" which few could object to is preferable to me.

It doesn't matter whether some people dislike secularisation - it will happen anyway. The child abuse scandals and the lack of clear guidance on women bishops or sexuality have simply hastened the demise of the power of religion in Britain.
I don't believe Baden Powell intended the scouts to be primarily a vehicle to further religion - he wanted to give children a chance to take part in healthy outdoor pursuits and learn to work in a team. You don't need religion for that.

Small point, slightly off-thread too, but Christmas and Easter both existed under other names before they were claimed as the property of the christian religion, so tough luck if you don't like them being 'used' by non-christians. They belong to everyone.

Grace yes they do - but they still swear to god - any god will do, it seems!

I am going to ask a really dumb question here - so pay attention at the back. Do other faiths not join the Guides/Scouts/Brownies etc ? I am thinking af areas which are more mixed than perhaps your average leafy Home Counties suburb, for instance Moseley/Kings Heath in Birmingham where DD lives. And going back decades we lived in Tooting when the DDs joined the Brownies, which they loved because they could play team games, at that time out of fashion at their trendy PC school, but that's another tale of woe. To call Tooting mixed was a bit like calling the Pope Catholic!
On the one hand I am against the secularisation of Christmas or Easter ("Happy Holidays"- yuk) but kids get so much fun from these organisations it would be wrong to exclude them.

I agree J05 it's a hard one!

I'm a non-believer but had no problem with my two boys joining the Scouts - to be honest I gave no thought to any oath that they made.

The Scout movement was presumably set up as an outward bound/military type of thing with a spiritual aspect - if you don't do spirituality then maybe it's not for you.

Watch out world