A typical DM 'story'.

Deedaa who on here has mentioned 'sending home'? That's quite inflamatory and not the issue.

Well it was from the horses mouth today wasn't it, Miliband admitted Labour 'got it wrong', again.

If the D.M. suggested that you should speak English before you could get a job in the public sector I can well imagaine the comments on the BBC and by some G.N's. Made me laugh.

What a hypocrite, he has name called and verbally abused the government at every turn over immigration levels, house building planning etc., and now he had the affront to embrace immigration debate.

I would not vote UKIP but I reckon they have started to make the others sit up and listen. The worst scenario would be another b----y coalition government for years to come if the main parties don't get a grip.

Well saying "we got it wrong" does show some sense doesn't it. Too many politicians over the years have been unwilling to admit that they got things wrong. Since Blair came to power it has been spin, spin, spin - always the positive message.
Milliband is the child of immigrants and I admire him for standing up and making that clear to everyone. Unlike Portillo, for instance, who did not. (referred to as Senor Porteeyo in our house)
Lets face it, during the boom years we all benefitted a lot from immigration. Not just customer service staff and a diversity of dining options. Companies cannot thrive and be successful and contribute to the taxes unless they can recruit enough staff. It is very dispiriting, time consuming and expensive to be trying to recruit and seeing candidate after candidate who does not fit the requirements.
If people were getting on a bus from Wales or Yorkshire and applying for these jobs then they would be welcome. But they are not willing to make the same sacrifices that immigrant workers do. There may be many in their home countries who would not either. But migrants are the ones with the get up and go.
I remember a young man from a very depressed northern village who I interviewed. Offered a good job in his local area. Had to come south for 2 weeks training. Couldn't hack it being away from home and went back after 3 days.
Anyway... we all benefitted from their labour and the government have tried to provide school places etc. But what could "they" do to increase the provision of decent low cost housing in London I wonder.

Yes I've been reading Ed Milliband's "We got it wrong" interview in the Times today, where he appears to have acknowledged the public's growing anxiety about wholesale immigration. Personally I'm sick of hearing the admissions of "with a bit of hindsight", we need politicians with a bit of foresight, if indeed you were to believe that they didn't know that vast numbers would be coming here anyway, as seemingly that was the master plan. What concerns me is that firstly our own young people are not being properly prepared to compete with a mostly superior and competent workforce from abroad, how many of them are told in school you cannot afford to be complacent about your future, you have to be as good as the Eastern Europeans to compete. We know from people like Terry Leahy ex boss of Tescos that many of our young are ill prepared for the workplace. The second problem that worries me, particularly here in the overcrowded South East is how the hell are we going to house everybody, or do we revert to shanty towns, people living in sheds because to me that's just Dickensian. Like Sel said it is not racist to address these issues we are talking about numbers here not race, we had a housing problem before the influx of Eastern Europeans. When I watched Panorama the other night and saw how badly our own indigenous people were suffering from a lack of an adequate place to live when they fall on hard times, I fear it's only going to get worse. Gordon Brown showed what he thought of the ordinary person's fears when he left his microphone on and described that lady Gillian Duffy as a bigot. Her only mistake was letting that oaf into her house for that ridiculous p.r. exercise afterwards. Most of the political elite have complete contempt for their voters they don't care what they think they will do anything to get elected and then renege on all their promises. Labour are simply faking their concern knowing they caused all this and worst of all shut down debate at the time and like Brown, accused those that were affected bigots.

I have no problem with immigrants (my own DH was himself a migrant) but I think the time has come to restrict the numbers coming into UK. We are a small island, our infrastructure cannot support the numbers already here with housing shortages, long waits for medical treatment etc.

As has been said before the problem is that if someone says they are concerned about the amount of immigration they are immediately labeled a racist. What good does it do to allow more and more people into the country and them not being able to find adequate housing, health care, jobs etc.

JessM I don't disagree with you regarding the quality or work ethic of many British job applicants. So, what's gone wrong and where? Is it the attitude in the home or the education they receive in the mainly State sector? Do the majority aspire to be anything beyond famous? The reality is that we can't compete and schools and universities have been churning out unemployable people for too long.

One thing the private sector is so good at, educationally, is fostering aspiration in a competative environment. We aren't all equal but we can try to overcome that. Mediocrity should never be the default position.

Ok, right wing rant over

Incidentally, I know this is the DM thread but the one I started on immigration has migrated here...my OP was about the new wave of immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania who will have free access to the job market and all benefits in 2014. These are poor countries who can't afford to lose the people we want - who gets the poor and huddled masses?

BAnanas couldn't agree more

The numbers are being restricted re requirement to pass English test, checking on universities etc.
If kids are not taught reasonable manners and social skills at home then they are going to be useless in customer service jobs aren't they.
I was surprised yesterday when 2 staff members in our M and S actually spoke to me in a pleasant manner. They were both over 50. I'm not sure this has ever happened before!
Those who come through the UK education system poorly equipped are the product of our culture.

Coming late to this debate and have tried to read and absorb all the various opinions and thoughts. There seems to be an agreement that we welcome and value the diversity brought to this country by immigrants but the time is coming when some firm of restriction is becoming necessary. We worry that our young people lack the skills and work ethic necessary to compete with hungry, driven incomers and that our resources are becoming over stretched in some areas.

That's the summary, but how can we as a nation change this state of affairs?

Immigration control?

Our young people?

The first is surely in the hands of the government of the day.

The second ????

The point is that while no one has talked about 'sending home' it would be an answer to the problem in some peoples' minds. It wouldn't sit well with those from Heinz 57 families like mine because it's the mixture that has made us what we are. There does seem to be a problem with motivation with some of our school leavers, Most of the girls I worked with over the last few years seemd quite happy to bumble along on minimum wages, turning down chances of further training and possible promotion and waiting to find a husband/partner. The boys weren't a lot different, several had ambitious ideas but didn't get the exam results they would have needed and the ones who are getting on didn't really get settled in a career until they were thirty. A couple of foreign girls who worked with us were found very odd because they both had career plans and took every opportunity for promotion.

That is so sad, Deeda. I can't help wondering what kind of homes these youngsters come from. Parents are the ones who should be sowing the seeds of aspiration in their children. Teachers too may be failing to inspire children with high expectations. Not only that, but too many girls think that a fortune will fall into their laps if they haunt the clubs that footballers frequent. This is certainly true in Manchester, as reported by my senior GD.

PS Incidentally, I wouldn't have my lovely GD if it weren't for immigration.

I think the problem is wider than that. When did children suddenly become the centre of the universe? Little princes and princess with parents pandering to their every need?

When mine were little, they ate what we ate, possible mushed up if very small. Now they have separate 'children's meals'. They fitted around our routine, now the household has to revolve around them. If they were in trouble at school they didn't run home and tell us as we'd probably take the teacher's side. Now parents are in at the drop of a hat demanding an explanation. They learned to say please and thank you and to stand aside for older people, especially the elderly. Now they chose their victims from this age group. They understood that learning and life weren't easy, you had to work at something to master it. Now they expect instant gratification.

Ok, not all children are like this but it's not just the ones from dysfunctional families that are unskilled, lacking in emotional maturity or good work habits. It goes across society.

Sorry to rant.

Jodi I think you've probably given voice to what a lot of people 'our age' (presumption there) think. I find a lot of gritting of teeth is required at times. I'm not sure when the shift happened - some of the fault must be ours as we're the ones who raised the parents of today.

Personally, I think it stems from those 'Mother & Child' parking spaces

And baby changing facilities everywhere ?

When I was a child we had icicles on the inside of our bedroom windows, cut up newspaper in the outside lavvie and no cars ferrying us all over the place.

And don't even get me started on X boxes!

Hence we developed backbone.

Jodi Rant away on that you have a point.

Some years ago, a social work friend of mine, spoke to a mum who's 13 yr old daughter was reported as being alone at home every week night when mum worked. (Its not technically illegal.) Mums response was "She's not neglected! You should see the stuff she has in her bedroom." It seems to say it all about some modern parents.
And dont even get me started about cooking individual meals for each child!

Petallus...like you our bedroom turned into a freezer each night. We went to bed in hats and gloves.

Remember the frost patterns on the window panes? Our children and their children wouldn't know what we were talking about.

Anno Frost patterns and condensation on the blankets from our breath.
Off to get my hot water bottle. Night all.

Just read the first and last pages of this thread, and observed there is a worry among many people about kids being badly brought up and having zero manners.

Well, here in Australia a friend of mine was a 'Brown Owl' with the Brownies in the late 1960s and through the 1970s. She was forever teaching the little girls about table manners, how to say please and thank you, how to use a knife and fork, how to introduce a friend to someone, how to talk to an adult they'd just met etc etc etc. Even back then, parents were not teaching their kids these skills. Young executives often get sent to etiquette training courses here these days, to make up for their hopelessness. The problem of kids not being socialised is not new.

As for biased news in the DM and other tabloids: we have very biased telly news here too, but one day, when our lads were around 9 and 12, we decided to 'translate' the news. We stripped away the bullshit and said what was really happening under the waffle and spin. In the end, the lads were rolling about laughing, but the lesson stuck. Our eldest, now a high school teacher teaching 15-18 year olds, shows his students to deconstruct the news and get to the truth. They love it, and many parents thank him, and say their kids are teaching them how to do it.

As for us lot on here - don't despair, just keep fighting back. Deconstruct the news for the grandkids - they'll love it because it can be hilarious.

I have a feeling 'grey power' is going to be so important in the coming years, because we have so much knowledge and skill and understanding, that is lacking in some of the young.

Yeah, OK I'm being a bit of a Pollyanna here, but why not?

Love it, joan! And I agree: kids benefit hugely from being able to think critically and not just accept without question bullshit that they are fed via news media.

Joan lovely and very well put. Funny, you jogged a memory for me when you mentioned your friend teaching the children about introductions: when I was young and fair, a very charming man wanted my hand (I'm sort of going with your Pollyanna theme here - or somesuch!) He was a rising executive and he gave me a book on etiquette for the corporate wife. I did see a chapter on the 'correct' order to introduce people according to rank! The relationship didn't go any further

Bags we'd all like to think we do that, hopefully

Bags I didn't deliberately leave out your Christmas hat!

Joan, I used to deconstruct advertisements with my sons. I didn't like them watching TV ads, but at least they could work out what lay behind them.