Welfare cash cards

ad you're right, it's probably one of IBS IDS's crazy ideas and will never 'grow legs' because it sounds unworkable (I haven't read the article).

Aren't we getting the proverbials in a twist about something that is merely a proposal in a ten-minute rule bill? How often do these bills become law? I don't know, but would bet it is either seldom or never. the article in the Telegraph is written by a rabid member of UKIP.

This phrase healthy choices just fills me with dread! it is so faddy and riddled with inconsistencies. One year's healthy option is next year's diet disaster. Remember low fat spread? Transfats. Or low fat yogurt? Loaded with starch and sugar. And frankly it is a manifestation of the nanny state to tell some people what is good for them.
BTW Vpq - any benefits you may receive are not coming out of anybody's taxes but your own - you paid NI all those years , this is an entitlement not a hand out.
However I can understand exctly where you are coming from.
When DH was in receipt of ESA - because his illnesses made work impossible, he got it because of contributions he had made during his working life. But once we were challenging ATOS's crass decision to stop the benefit, I for one, felt very humiliated at having to justify ourselves. So while I agree with Nanado about not feeling stigmatised by using my buspass etc, if I were dependent on it, I might react differently. It's like choosing to use the lift instead of the stairs and needing to.

A friend took her car into a nearby garage for its MOT and walked across the road to a supermarket where several drunken men were in the carpark; she felt very uneasy and complained to the staff in the shop. She was told that there was nothing the staff could do to move them on, they were always there because they were addicts and when they collected their "benefits" the first thing they did was to go to the supermarket and buy yet more alcohol. I am sure this is not an isolated case - we should not provide a system in this country which enables this kind of behaviour.

I would say I am in the supermarket a couple of times a week - I have no idea what cards the person in front of me uses to pay for their goods - I might notice if they are paying with cash, but I always give the people in front privacy to enter their PIN. Tbh, I would be more worried if the Labour Party were talking about starting this system - as they seem much more likely to try to tell me what to do!

You can't do that because the card is meant to control how you shop so that you make healthy choices. Therefore you won't be able to buy that extra bottle unless you use the black market that is sure to develop.

I would think they'd have to decide what was a fair proportion of a family's income to be spent on 'healthy' foods and a card issued for that amount. The remainder of their benefits entitlement would be theirs to spend as they wished - so that extra bottle of wine could be paid for out of that.

OK lets take this to the extreme. We will all be required to a use a card and our purchases will be monitored. Money as it exists now will be unknown. The Government of the day decides to limit wine consumption to a safer amount. A woman is allowed 2/3 units a day ...that's 21 units in week but that's the maximum so lets say over the month a woman is allowed either 21 or 14 units. Thats 56 units a month. But we shouldn't drink every day so we'll half that. You now have 28 units. That's a maximum of 3 bottles a month. So say you buy a bottle a week. Come to week four you pass your bottle to the till as normal but the till operator says you can't have the wine because you're over your allowance. You have no choice but to leave it.

Is that right? Should the government be able to tell you how to spend your money?

Of course the Government won't stop with one item. Cakes, biscuits, buns, sweets, Red meat. In fact anything the Government decides isn't healthy.

This matter is part of a much wider, political issue that clearly needs addressing. When vampirequeen says the system is already a minefield, and now they are planning to meddle with one aspect of it, that's not going to fix anything. As usual misuse by the few impact on the many who use the benefits system properly, but clearly the attempts to repair the system arise at least in part from the realisation that the benefits cost is unsustainable (like the NHS in its current form). A lot of my experience at close quarters of people on benefits (and I accept this is not a 'good' example) were the people that attended the drug clinic where I worked 12 years ago. Some of the 'clients' (not all) would openly discuss the arrangement whereby whoever picked up their GIRO that week would subsidise the others until they got theirs etc, in other words, the benefits were pooled. Sadly, it was often to buy drugs used on top of their medication (methadone) - which we had to curb if it took place in and around the clinic, so that's how I know about that! The other unfortunate memory I have from the 3 years I worked there was (again some, not all, but word quickly spread) of the clients nagging (that's the only word for it) the foreign staff grade doctor who was grappling to try and understand the complicated benefit system that his patients were eligible for, to sign their Incapacity Benefit forms. There are 306,000 adult opiate or crack users in the treatment system in the UK, more than half of those are in prison.

When DD had to claim benefits for the first time in her working life 18mths ago she was worried about the possible stigma it would have on the children when she was informed she had been granted free school meals,there was no need to worry as they where issued with tokens that they feed into a machine which gave out a coupon the same as one received by cash paying children so no stigma there at all.
She also receives tax credits for the children but this is a subsidy to her wages that she receives via her bank every week so she has cash available to her if at all the system is changed and some benefits are paid via card for the essentials her family would need,I see no wrong in this she would still be getting her full entitlement she would still be working and contributing to the economy.
vampire I wouldn't worry about anyone next to me in a queue seeing my card there are that many out there I wouldn't know the difference to be honest anyway I am more interested in putting my stuff on the conveyer belt than what the person in front is paying a bit like "does this face look bothered"

hummingbird I wasn't really thinking about the abusers and feckless in themselves, more trying to address the system that condemns, mainly young people, to a life of such limited horizons.

The tax system is abused by the wealthy - there will always be smart accountants who will get round legislation, but that doesn't mean the tax system shouldn't be reformed. Same with the welfare system.

I'm not saying anyone on here would judge me but some people in general will. It's my private business...not something that a stranger in the queue behind me should be able to know.

vampire I would not judge anyone for being on benefits. Like river my liberal credentials are as good as anyone's but I also think the situation needs sorting out, for the benefit of those, like you and bluebell's niece, who are genuinely in need of help or top ups.

I don't know what the answer is.

Perhaps there should be a working group to look at this which includes people who are in the benefit system who can advise ministers.

Of course there is a group of people who abuse the system, but there are also huge numbers of people who genuinely need help from the state. Of course there are fit young people not working - there are few jobs and opportunities around, and things are almost certainly no better in next town! The reasons for these trends are deep-rooted and complex. I guess that most people would agree that reform is needed, but the trouble is that the system will never be sophisticated enough to discriminate between the needy and the feckless, and the idea of stigmatising everyone is abhorrent. There are school children who will not avail themselves of free school meals because of the stigma of it. Imagine this across the welfare state! This is a scheme dreamt up by someone who has never needed benefits, that's for sure.

Am I to lose my right to privacy? If I have a special card people will know I'm on benefits. I don't want all and sundry to know. I don't look ill so people will judge me especially with the current campaign to make all sick and disabled appear as scroungers.

There is certainly demonisation of claimants in parts of the press and by politicans but that shouldn’t mean that reform of the welfare system is not addressed

There's no doubt that over the decades ‘life on the dole’ has become a way of life for many people – it simply can’t be right that you can earn more from welfare than being employed. Huge swathes of working class communities have been blighted by low aspirations and expectations of them. Just recently there has been discussion on the low numbers of white working class boys going to university – this is not surprising considering the environment in which many of them grow up.

There are fit healthy young men and women who will not move to the next town to find employment, never mind to other parts of the country – their ambitions are so low. When I was in the US recently I met a nurse, aged 68, who had moved from Florida to New Mexico to take up a new job – this is common – people move thousands of miles.

My liberal credentials are as good as anyone else's but I think we really must address the situation. Cash welfare cards, particularly for young people and those with children; compulsory work or education; and proper reform of the benefits system sounds reasonable to me.

You know what I meant bluebell. I also meant that people need to get rid of this victim mentality and just get on with life. Come on, if this is a plastic card to be presented at the supermarket, for example, are you imagining that the checkout person is going to look down on the person with it? Is that your point?

Nanado - why is making strong arguements about this 'shouting' about being punished or stigmatised? It might seem like a mad idea at the moment but if noone makes the case against it, who knows what might happen?

Nanado - I dont know what tax system you were in but I dont know one where anyone pays 40% of their income in tax - you mean that you paid 40% on your income above a certain level. And there's a world of difference between queueing to get universal non means tested benefits paid in cash and using a welfare cash card. Barrow - I agree, I cant see it coming in as it is actually really unworkable but it would include low paid workers as its tied up with the introduction of the universal credit. Again I say if a few abuse the system why punish everyone.

Whilst I think this scheme does have some merit I don't see it actually being agreed by parliament.

I think that probably the reasoning behind it is to stop people who do spend their benefits on drink and drugs, it is not aimed at people who are working in low paid jobs and needing help.

Surely the best way to deal with it, if a card does come into being, is that it could not be used in pubs, off licences (if they still exist), betting shops etc. Other than that they could be used like a normal debit card in shops and supermarkets.

People are always shouting about being punished and stigmatised. I have several state benefits; my pension, my winter fuel allowance and a bus pass. I don't feel punished or stigmatised when I show the pass. Should I?

And it's not that long ago that pensioners used to queue at their local post office to get their pension. Indeed I remember having to get my 'family allowance' by doing just that. I didn't feel stigmatised or punished. Rather I was pleased to have the extra cash. Now my son will have to give up his family allowance or whatever they call it nowadays.

I paid a lot in taxes when I was working. 40% of my wages went into the system to help fund people less well off. I still pay tax albeit at 20%.

I think people need to stop seeing themselves as victims of society and take what's on offer a bit more graciously.

this article makes it clear that the public is being persuaded (brainwashed) by the constant demonising of benefits claimants by politicians and press.

Nanado - the fact that people on tax credits would have a card for part of their income just shows how ridiculous the sheme is - and thats because its designed to stigmatise and punish people on b enefits. And my niece does NOT gamble or smoke - where did I say she did? I just mentioned the odd bottle of beer as an example of what is perfectly acceptable in a civilised society

Rinky - the scheme as proposed WOULD apply to all the people in the groups designated - not just the type of people you obviously spend your life falling over on street corners. Sel- it wouldn't be stigmatising to be in a supermarket queue, having to use your card, being told you had 'forbidden' goods in your basket (apart from all the other issues Vampire identifies)?????? Some of you might remember the stigma of receiving free school meals - I remember the shame of having to stand up in class and declare I was having them. And then when I passed my 11+ and got a uniform grant, the education department sent a man shopping with us to make sure I suppose that my grandma didn't spend the money on drugs or alcohol or betting.I remeber the scene so well -55 years ago - and being hot with the shame of this strange man seeing the navy blue uniform knickers laid out on the counter. So yes I do get emotional about it all because people should be treated with respect - any bad apples should be dealt with individually and not by punishing everyone. And Rinky I didn't appreciate your flippant and unkind comment about donating the odd bottle of beer - of course I help my niece out but in ways that enable her to keep her self-respect which she has fully earned.

I've had to go on benefits this month due to ill health. The system is already a minefield before you add another layer. Am I now incapable of deciding what I need to buy? Can't I drink diet coke anymore? I doubt a card would be accepted in all shops and I buy most of my clothes from a catalogue that caters for BBWs. How will I pay for my clothes? What if I want to take advantage of a bargain that is sold by a shop that doesn't accept the card?

The change in income has already affected my choices when shopping. Should I lose the right to make any choices?

Oh heck I did start a argument didn't I? I can't get so emotive about it that I assume all people on benefits are to be penalised but there are people sitting on street corners as soon as their benefits are paid guzzling away at their booze until money is gone then cadge off others or steal to fund the rest of the fortnight. How can that be right?

Also I don't see why teeth rotting coca cola and squashes can't be part of the ban! How can some of you take it to such negative degrees and assume the end of the world scenarios talked about here. If you are so keen for family members to have the odd bottle of beer, perhaps you can donate some for Christmas and birthdays.

Nothing is perfect but I do think something like this should be tried. I certainly have had to do without any treats many times in the past as have many others on gransnet