Britain's basic State pension. Do we revere our elderly people in this country ?

As I alluded to Ivanhoe:

There are pensioners out there who do not know they can claim/are too proud to claim things like the winter fuel allowance or Pension Credit That does nor mean the money is not available to them!

When I claim my State pension it will be, in reality with benefits, more than I currently earn.

I get by perfectly well. As I live on, and will continue to live on, the actual minimum available to me, what does that say about the definition of 'living in poverty'?

It's a shame you aren't capable of actually answering the points put to you by other GNetters Ivanhoe. Just churning out the same ole statements shows an inability to engage in a real exchange of opinions.

NannaAnna There are 12 million pensioners in this country. 1 in 5 live on or below the poverty line, did you know that ?

Oh for Heaven's sake! I don't know what Ivanhoe is banging on about. Clearly someone with a blinkered single obsessive agenda.
I will chose to retire when I hit State Pension age in Sept of this year because, with Pension Credit, i will have an income almost identical to my current part-time job. My bus pass will mean that I save money, so I will have more disposable income. My winter fuel allowance will help pay my gas bill so that I will in reality have some more disposable income. My pensioner's reduced rate of Council Tax will mean yet another saving, giving me yet another little bit of extra disposable income.
I should ideally have a 'decent' pension, but like many women, I lost out when I got divorced. My ex very cleverly managed to keep ALL of his pension, amassed while I merely worked as a full-time mum to our 3 children, enabling him to climb the corporate ladder without as single thought for the support (me) making it smooth for him. Ah well ... such is life in our culture.
I currently only have a part-time job because at 60+ the offers for full-time jobs applied for simply didn't come tumbling in... But at least I have a job and don't have to claim benefits. Hurrah!
I manage perfectly well on my income because I downsized my property (Again! 4th time since divorce) Now I don't have a mortgage. I did have to move 10 miles away from the town I love to afford a flat, but, hey ho, I own it outright. No worries about paying mortgage. No fears of repossession.
Once I'm claiming my pension, I will have the freedom to do the self-employed work I really want to do because I will know that my essential outgoings are covered by my pension. What an opportunity!
Surely the State Pension is a safety net? It's there for people just like me who have no work-related pension because they were full-time mothers who have not built up a decent (or any) workplace pension? I think that's pretty damn good. Don't most people who have earned their living for 40 or so years have a workplace contributory pension to claim?? What is the issue?
As has already been posted, there are pensioners out there who do not know they can claim/are too proud to claim things like the winter fuel allowance. If they suffer as a result, one can hardly blame 'The State" for that.
As Ivanhoe has failed miserably to answer any points posted by other rational GNetters, resorting remorselessly to regurgitating his same ole same ole dirge, I don't expect a rational response.
No worries. I know I will get by perfectly well on my basic State pension, made up to the acceptable minimum by Pension Credits ... and that combined total is actually the real 'minimum'. I don't have a problem with that.

Elegran, the wise orator facing the ridicule of others, never starts. Trouble is i'm not wise. I'm a fool.

The British largely have been conditioned to believe that the word "pensioner", mean poverty.

The British have never been conditioned into the realization that the vast majority of our elderly people have worked and already paid their taxes and their NI contributions.

Goodnight all. Sleep well Ana

That says it all.

Ivanhoe The suggestion was that pensioners with an income of over £50,000 should not receive winter fuel payment and free bus passes and prescription. My income is nowhere near £50,000 a year, but if it were I don't think I should feel myself hard done by if I had to pay busfares and prescriptions, and my own fuel costs. I would complain if that ceiling stayed in place as the years went by and the value of money went down, but I am not going to agonise over people with twice my income being responsible for some of their own lives.

So you may think that I don't care about starving freezing pensioners. Don't be naive, of course it is a matter of concern that people need more help, but NOT in exactly the terms you want to hammer us into agreeing to. It smacks of "Answer yes or No! Are you still beating your wife?"

Sometimes leaning too heavily on your audience can make them slope off and stop listening to you. The wise orator stops before that happens.

Dont need to Ana, Britain is a very wealthy country. This answer may not please you, but its all your going to get.

Don't care about what? I don't understand your convoluted thinking, Ivanhoe. If you have the facts and figures to back up the affordability of your proposed increase in pensions it shouldn't matter whether I care or not. And I'm not the only one asking the same question.

Ana, because if you dont care, nothing I will say in answer to your question will make a blind bit of difference.

Why? Does your answer depend on my response?

Ana, Before I answer your question. Do you agree with my basic posting ?

I am a member of this organisation. Please read as follows.

National Pensioners Convention

NPC Bulletins

Campaigners Accuse Think-Tank Of “Pensioner Bashing”
Britain’s biggest pensioner organisation, The National Pensioners Convention
(NPC) has accused the Social Market Foundation of “pensioner bashing”
following the think-tank’s latest call for free bus travel to be scrapped
and the winter fuel allowance and free TV licences to be means-tested.

Dot Gibson, NPC general secretary said: “Once again pensioners are being
told they must pay for the mistakes of the financial sector, by losing their
free bus pass or winter fuel allowance.

The Social Market Foundation is completely wrong to claim that free bus travel doesn’t contribute anything to the economy – when it enables older people to get out and about and spendmoney in their local area, as well as allowing them to do unpaid voluntary work that adds an estimated £40bn to our communities every year.

Taking the bus pass away would inevitably lead to greater levels of social isolation that would end up costing more in terms of increased demand for care and support.

The deputy Prime Minister has tried to suggest that millionaires should no longer receive a bus pass – but the truth is no-one can find any millionaires using a bus pass.

This is just a smoke screen to take away the benefit from everyone – including the very poorest in our society.

In effect it amounts to little more than “pensioner bashing” – trying to blame today’s older generation for the economic crisis they didn’t cause. Any political
party that seeks to take away the bus pass will have one hell of a fight on
its hands.”

I posted this on the other thread, but it is relevant here.

Proportion of earners to pensioners

Country..........1970 .......2010 ...... 2050 (projected)
United States..... 5.3 ..........4.5 ........ 2.6
Japan ............... 8.5 ......... 2.6 ........ 1.2
Britain .............. 4.3 ......... 3.6 ......... 2.4
Germany .......... 4.1 ......... 3.0 ......... 1.6
France .............. 4.2 ......... 3.5 ....... . 1.9
Netherlands ...... 5.3 .......... 4.0 ........ 2.1

Wikipedia

Ivanhoe

Please answer my question.

Do you not accept pensioners can/ are having their pensions increased from the basic state pension by means of guaranteed pension credit and Winter Fuel Allowance plus other fuel payment assistance. Also free bus passes, tv licence, prescriptions. A fact that flies in the face of your arguement that the Tory Party are freezing pensioners to death.

It is still not the case you are financially credible if you persist to refuse to acknowledge facts re pensions.

Why shouldn't pensioners or anyone claiming state aid not be means tested???. If you follow your logic on that point, you are saying millionaires should be entitled to state aid. Again showing a lack of financial credibility and challenging your own beliefs, surely.

Ivanhoe Hold on. In this thread, you say that pensions used to be linked to the average adult male wage, until M Thatcher changed things. On another thread you say you would "rate State pensions to male average earnings or inflation whichever the higher "

Do you mean you would give them an equal income the same as an average adult male worker, or link rises to the rise in the average wage? There is a difference.

You also say on that thread that you would stop all council tax, and give all pensioners full care without a means test.

I still don't know what you would cut to pay for all this. Don't do half the job, finish it. How would you fund this?

"In 1950, there were 7.2 people aged 20–64 for every person of 65 or over in the OECD countries. By 1980, the support ratio dropped to 5.1 and by 2010 it was 4.1. It is projected to reach just 2.1 by 2050 . The average ratio for the EU was 3.5 in 2010 and is projected to reach 1.8 by 2050 . "

Boring! You just keep churning out the same facts, over and over again!
[yawn] emoticon.

And how is this to be paid for, Ivanhoe? (for the umpteenth time of asking)

Millions of elderly people in Britain are having to choose between eating, and heating their homes because the UK's State pension is so low, and what's more the media are sweeping this issue under the carpet.

The basic state pension for single pensioners is just £107 . 45 a week, and this is following a 30, 40, and 50 year working life contributing to the system both taxes and NI contribution which were mandatory

The State pension used to increase with British male average earnings, or inflation whichever the higher to protect its value, prior to 1979, but when Thatcher took office in 1980 she broke to state pensions link with male average earnings, and the state pension has decreased in value ever since, being linked to inflation, and New Labour under Blair and Brown continued Thatcher's pension policy.

All pensioners have been denied a decent state pension for over 30 years.

Means testing pensioners is not just an evil, it is a crime, to quote Gordon Brown prior to the 1997 general election of New Labour.

The facts are means testing pensioners is costing 15 to 20 times more of tax payers money than the restoration of the earnings link, and as more and more people reach retirement age means testing costs will spiral, and state pension costs will dwindle.

The low state pension in this country has nothing to do with cost, it is ideologically right wing dogma that began in the 80's.

Pension Credit is a means test, and pensioners should not have to endure means testing for more money.

The basic state pension should be increased universally. And the rich should pay higher income tax to balance out what they receive in a higher State pension. This is about re-distribution of wealth, and fairness.

Suffice to say that Margaret Thatcher broke the link that kept the state pensions increasing with male average earnings in 1980, almost 30 years ago, and linked the state pension to inflation, that's when the state pension level began to dwindle in value, and means testing became the norm.

1 in 5 from 12 million pensioners live in poverty in this country, having to choose between heating their homes and buying food, there are also millions of pensioners who suffer untimely deaths each winter because of hypothermia related illness, due to the above reasons. Winter deaths claim 200 pensioners every day.

Means testing pensioners is not the answer to providing our elderly people with decent living standards without means testing, particularly as they have spent a 30, 40, and 50 year working life on lower wages than today, paying into the system both taxes and NI contributions.

A decent state pension is their "right".

In future years, today's young people who will not have been able to save for a private pension due to long term unemployment,/ and/or low wages, and there for will be in the same, if not worse destitution as their parents and grandparents are in today.

What is needed to reverse Government policy since the 80's, is a a mass consolidation of 60 million British people to stand and be counted on behalf of 12 million pensioners for a decent increase in the basic State pension, re- linked to male average earnings as it was under traditional Labour in the 70's. And the abolition of the council tax, the means test, and State subsidy of Utilities.

If things do not change in this country, today's young people have got all this to come.

IVANHOE

I have tried very hard to debate with you but I find I am not able to get to grips with how I can get a return post from you that does not 'preach' rather than offer any constructive meaning. I do not mean that to be patronising, I really do think you are passionate about what you say. Please accept that applies to some of us as well.

I, like other GN's, have told you of the circumstances and financial assistance we know are given to our pensioners. Do you think we are trying to dupe you? I reiterate my father is extremely well looked after by the state.

Do you think that if pensioners are dying from the cold, a fact I accept, it is because they have over £23 grand in the bank and refuse to spend their money. Or maybe they are lacking in finances and don't know how to access help. Or they are poor and too proud to ask for help.

Now maybe we can all agree that if our government, OF ANY COLOUR, look at trying to search out such pensioners then just maybe we can agree on some common ground.

It is not constructive to bash the Tory Party when they have just given 5% pension increases and kept a very good financial subsidy of £300 Winter Fuel Allowance +£150 Warm Home Front+ £25 a week extra cold weather payments to the over 80's. You cannot be deemed as financially coherent to deny this is not enough to keep a pensioner warm and safe in the UK.

I think you do revere your elderly.I think your country does try to take care of them. Of course,what do I know? Not much.Social security is not enough to live on for most Americans. It is based on how much you paid in.I will just receive about 200 dollars. I quit work because of a bad back and managed with my husbands average income.Its VERY hard to get disability payments.As I see it we all have people that freeze in the winter,suffer with low income,not enough food.I admire your country trying to help elderly with home care and free medication. Many elderly here have to choose between their food or medication.My husband "chose" early retirement and now we have to find health care.We have gotten one quote for 1300 dollars a month. Things are rough for both countries and it just seems to get worse.At least you don't have to worry if a illness happens you won't have to choose between your health or life savings and home. Hospitals can force you to sell your home here!

Thanks, Galen, I know you are up-to-speed on ATOS and I am glad that somebody is showing some common sense.

greatnan iro your post re ATOS. I'm not an admirer of that organisation as you all know!
However it is the law that states that aids or guide dogs must be taken into consideration
However, there is a new amendment to the regulations which I only received this morning, which amends the descriptors to ' where ever practical"
This follows an upper tribunal ruling in the case of a man in Glasgow who lived on the third floor of a tenement with no lift and couldn't use a wheelchair as there was no one to store it on the ground floor!

Who is Greatman? Ivanhoe, it seems you have not grasped the principle of this forum. Any of us can post on any thread, as long as we stay within forum guidelines. I have not 'hi-jacked' your thread, I have made a contribution to the debate. You do not have the slightest reason to be unpleasant to me - I thought we were on the same side!

Also as an aside: I was concerned about your 'far east' reference. Wondered if I had missed some declaration of war with North Korea, perhaps.