Britain's basic State pension. Do we revere our elderly people in this country ?

As I alluded to Ivanhoe:

There are pensioners out there who do not know they can claim/are too proud to claim things like the winter fuel allowance or Pension Credit That does nor mean the money is not available to them!

When I claim my State pension it will be, in reality with benefits, more than I currently earn.

I get by perfectly well. As I live on, and will continue to live on, the actual minimum available to me, what does that say about the definition of 'living in poverty'?

It's a shame you aren't capable of actually answering the points put to you by other GNetters Ivanhoe. Just churning out the same ole statements shows an inability to engage in a real exchange of opinions.

NannaAnna , Why are we means testing elderly people for State handouts ?

Why do the British largely have such an acceptance culture, never fighting back about anything ?

Oh dear, oh dear Ivanhoe
Same ole, same ole. Yawn, yawn.
If you can't actually add anything to your regurgitated statements then please do us all a favour and bow out.
It's getting very boring.
Night night.

Ivanhoe

For goodness sake ANSWER MY RUDDY QUESTIONS.

You hate the wealthy. If your idea that pensioners should not be means tested was adopted, does that not mean YOU ARE HAPPY FOR MILLIONAIRES TO GET STATE BENEFITS.

This is not politics, it is a point in question to you as a poster inviting comment from us but you are not playing the game. Talk about Rhino skin.

Ivanhoe Reliable statistics show (you seem to like statistics) that over 3 million children in the UK ( 1 in 3) live on or below the poverty line. I appreciate your concern for the elderly but can you not see the wider picture? I am sorry but I cannot agree that pensions should be set at a one payments fits all level like you would like and think that means testing is the only way to ensure that those at the bottom get the help they need and those with plenty money get the basic pension plus any private provision that they have have been able to afford to make.

I would also be interested to know that of the "36,000 elderly that died of cold related illnesses last year," how many died of hypothermia and how many died of complications related to flu etc ( we all get flu it and has nothing to do with money). Also out of those who genuinely died of hypothermia did they genuinely have no access to heating and/or no money to use it? Or were they not willing to spend what they did have on keeping warm?

'State handouts' - right wing tabloid vocabulary for legitimately claimed benefits.

I think Ivanhoe is a very rich pensioner who does not want to be means tested.

Wish we had a pot-stirring emoticon Greatnan.

Yes, pay a decent retirement pension, enough to buy winter fuel and pay busfares and TV licenses plus some for enjoying life, but when there are more people unemployed and retired than there are people working, the tax rate will have to be a minimum of 75%. Retirement will have to start later.

I am out, as they say on Dragon's Den. I have a lot to do.

Greatnan Ivanhoe claims to be 64 years old, so even if he is retired with a company pension, he wouldn't be able to claim a state pension at the moment would he?

I dislike being harangued and I especially dislike being accused of complacency and a lack of humanity by a complete stranger who has no knowledge of my background, history, present circumstances or future prospects. I strongly suspect that these feelings are shared by many Gransnetters, some of whom have shown considerably more patience on this thread than I have.

I don't think I have seen anyone actually agree with Ivanhoe - maybe this is his purpose, a uniting of Gransnetters, a bringer of peace and harmony. How lovely Ivan

We have been entertaining an angel unawares, Sel

Elegran

POGS.

"""YOU ARE HAPPY FOR MILLIONAIRES TO GET STATE BENEFITS"""".

No. I am happy for millionaires to get the same level of State pension that everybody else gets, and why ?

Because they will have also paid their income tax and their NI contributions, so they are also entitled to it.

A State pension should not be paid as a charity benefit for the needy. tI should be paid as a right when reaching old age retirement.

Incidentally, the Liberal Democrats have always believed in a State pension being paid based on citizenship, and not NI contributions. I'm also in favour of that.

Ivanhoe, this would leave pensioners better off than almost every other household in the country, households who would also be burdened by an ENORMOUS increase in their taxes to pay for it. Do you really want lynch mobs in the street killing old people so that taxes of working households come down to a reasonable level?

For 10 years I was a Home Advisor with Age Concern (as it was then) visiting several pensioner households a week and my experience was that if a person over 60 was in receipt of all the benefits they were entitled to, they could live comfortably but not extravagently. The exceptions were caused mainly by other decisions taken by that person, one lady had taken on a large mortgage to pay a son's debts, another had a significant sum in savings that reduced her benefit entitlement but absolutely refusing to use any of it for desperately needed household repairs or help in the house, also an urgent need, because the money put aside for a rainy day and might be needed sometime. Then there were the couple who spent every night down at the Working Men's Club.....

FlicketyB, I happen to believe that all UK pensioners should be very well off indeed, more so than today's workers, for this generation have already done their bit for Queen and country, paying taxes and NI contributions all their working lives.

It is only Government funded with huge turnovers, Age Concern and similarly other charities for the elderly that has helped keep Britain living in the dark ages in the way it basically bows and scrapes to this and previous right wing Governments since Thatcher who broke the State pensions link with earnings in 1980, about how to look after the elderly.

The British in general are conditioned to believe that pensioners should be poor. hence the intrusive and demeaning means test system that is actually costing more in tax payers money to administer, , than it would cost to up rate the State pension to a civilised amount.

And I might add, good luck to any pensioner down at the working man's club, they bloody well deserve it, because they have nothing else thanks to the bowing and scraping of Age Concern, and Help the Aged in 21st Century Britain.

Ivanhoe, I believe that all households in this country should receive an income of at least £300 person, that way all parents would be able to send their children to private schools, we could all afford to buy a house and take expensive cruises for our holidays and life would be perfect. Unfortunately life isnt like that and blaming all societies ills on a political party you do not like is neither rational or reasonable. No, I do not support the Conservatives, never have, ditto Labour.

I can see no reason why today's pensioners, of whom I am one, should get all these benefits. My parents worked hard, paid taxes and fought in the last war, they didnt get it ,my children work hard, pay their taxes and thankfully have not had to live during a period of World War and are in time will be as much entitled to all these benefits that you think our generation are so uniqiely entitled.

How would you pay for them? Please do not say bankers bonuses, high income taxes etc etc. Even if the recipients stayed in the country to pay the taxes, there are so few of them relatively speaking that if we got an extra £1.00 a week we would be lucky

The words head, brick wall and banging come to mind - I am off this thread!

FlicketyB, I didnt say households, I said pensioners.

And it was indeed Margaret Thatcher who stopped state pensions increasing with British prosperity in 1980, over 30 years ago.

I dont want pensioners receiving benefits. I want pensioners receiving a decent State pension.

I have already told you that the means test system costs excessivelly more to administer than an uprate in the State pension.

But like I said, the British are conditioned to believe pensioners are poor, which is why people like you continue advocating means tested handouts for pensioners.

How can they be better off than the workers, when the tax income from the workers is what pays their pensions and supports those who can't find work?

They should have a big enough income to live without going short of nessecities and have some left over for enjoying life. That was the aim of the original old age pensions.

Ivanhoe Your heart and loyalty are beyond reproach, but your arithmetic leaves a lot to be desired.

I think this will be my last comment. I am beginning to think that Ivanhoe is Greek. His economics are those of the Greek government until the recent debacle. Pay people pensions that last generations, give generous benefits to all and sundry and dont bother about where the money is going to come from to pay for these generous benefits, just borrow, borrow borrow, until the day comes when.......

Parents are putting children in care because they cannot afford to feed them and old people are begging in the streets because their pensions are now so poor they cannot feed themselves and keep a roof over their heads and unemployment is officially 27% but unofficially much higher.

FlicketyB, Yes, and while our Government's continue fighting foreign wars, and upholding third world countries.

Do you think the British people can afford private pensions ?

When my mother was a widowed pensioner she was better off financially than she had ever been in her entire life, frankly she had an excess of anything between £300 and £400 per month just rolling up. She had my father's private pension, a small private pension of her own plus state pension The mortgage having been paid off years ago and when my father died she downsized from a house to a flat so she had a stash of money invested as well. She was able to afford a cleaner helper from a private agency come in twice a week, this was necessary as she had osteoporosis and she needed help with shopping and cleaning.

I was glad for her I wouldn't ever have wanted her to have struggled at this time of her life, but we would often both contrast it with the time when my brother and I were growing up and money was tight. New school shoes had to be carefully factored in to the family budget for example. My mum would often say these excess funds had come at the wrong time for her, she didn't have the inclination to go shopping, and when we did go there wasn't anything she wanted and her travelling days had passed. In short she had absolutely nothing to spend it on.

Ivanhoe

What are you saying Yes to in your reply to Flickety???? I DON'T GET IT. She was telling you factual information about the state the people of Greece are experiencing, not fantasy UK. That would be the EU nation that belongs to the EU you are so fond of in comparrison to our government.

Thank you for answering my question. I now know you are advocating millionaires recieve a much higher pension than that of the workers who are paying tax to pay for it, whilst trying to feed their families. A point I wonder if those who have agreed with you thus far might not agree with.

As you have asked us whether or not we are right wingers I am going to ask you a question I would normally not bother asking. What political party do you find drawn to. You hate 'right wingers', you think Labour are crap too. Are you a communist or what. I am very interested to know as I find you are quite an enigma. You so easily contradict yourself I for one cannot follow your arguements logically. I don't know if I am alone in that thought, probably.

Ivanhoe you seem to think that becoming pensioners makes us somehow different people. We are not some homogenous group of needy old dears who should be revered! Some of us are wealthy, some middling, some living on the basic pension and pension credit. Some of us are not worthy of reverence ( I speak for myself, here)

A lot of us obviously feel we have enough for our needs and don't want young families to have to foot the bill for all pensioners to have a luxurious lifestyle.

This is not passive acceptance of poverty, it is a positive embracing of what we have. We see how hard it is for our DC and DGC to buy a home and bring up their families and we don't want to make their lives harder. Why shouldn't we feel that we are a part of society, rather than some special group who should get much more than everyone else, whether we need it or not?