Pope resigning

Bags I'm sorry you were so damaged as a child. I had a lovely Sunday School.

When a child is told it is wicked for not being able to believe in transubstantiation, at the age of seven, for Christ's sake!, that's indoctrination. When a child is told that they cannot question papal infallibility, that's indoctrination. I don't think my family or my school were unusual.

Sorry!

This might be a starter. The Religion and Society Programme at Lancaster University does a lot of work in this area www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/feb/14/richard-dawkins-british-christianity

In short, give me a chance to answer, please!

I was writing the answer to your wpquestion, lily, while you were mentally criticising me for not answering. I suggest you check the post timings. They can give a clue as to possibilities.

In answer to your question... by indoctrination. I'm thinking right now of my Mormon friends and their five adult children, the older ones of whom are about the same ages as my eldest two daughters (late twenties/early thirties). Those kids were totally immersed in indoctrination to the point of hardly mixing with anyone who wasn't a mormon. They were taught, without knowing it was happening, to close their minds to anything that questioned what their church told them. I saw this while the mother was trying to convert me. It was fascinating, but frightening to watch. This is fairly extreme, I admit, but it's what ahppens to varying degrees within all religions. It's indoctrination.

Of course, I do not know what your story is, lily. I'm sure you are a thoughtful person. All I know is that I was most certainly indoctrinated as a child (catechism, for a start, from the age of four), and it was extremely difficult to break out of the bindings. It might have been easier of people hadn't got angry and upset about it but they did. From what I've heard and read, that's common.

There is quite a lot of research on this and related topics. I notice you've avoided answering my question!

I'd be interested to know, if it's yet possible to do a comparison, which it may not be, what percentage of people brought up with a religious background, then choose to drop the religion compared with the percentage of people brought up without a religion who then choose to join one. I'm not sure there is a whole non-religious generation yet, so the comparison may not be possible, but my bet is on the latter percentage (i.e. choosing religious faith) being smaller by a significant amount.

How CAN you be a believer not out of choice? You may go through the motions without believing but the nature of belief is that only you know if it exists! Lots of people believe though they no longer go through the motions but I can't claim to spot them in the street. How on earth you know when people are not believers out of choice thoroughly foxes me. Unless, like God, you know the secrets of men's (and women's) hearts.

I do accept that not all believers are so as a result of indoctrination, lily, but I also know that many believers are not believers out of any real choice. I'm outspokenly atheist now, but it wasn't always easy, you know. It has taken a long time to gain enough courage against all the disapproval and the constant blethering about morality being dependent on faith and religion.

The "indoctrination" is obviously very hit-and-miss since so many of the posters on Gransnet complain about being indoctrinated in childhood and yet maintain a robustly sceptical stance with no sign of guilt. Bags I wish you would accept that not everyone who continues to believe does so as a result of "indoctrination". It's extremely patronising and implies us Christians are all some kind of muppets! Some people arrive at atheism after years of questioning, others arrive at faith. Same process, same journey, different destination.

And they do make people believe anyway, by indoctrinating them from infancy. It's quite hard to break away for some people, because even when they want to they are filled will guilt about it all – because of early indoctrination or, as jings so eloquently put it, because they are indeed over a barrel. This is what people like you, jings, just don't seem to understand.

Some churches, such as the Mormon church, make it extremely difficult to break away. They really harass people. And then there is Islam – apostacy is punishable by death. If that's not an over the barrel sort of threat, what is? Heresy in the christian church used to be punishable by death too. Why do you think atheists kept quiet for the most part until that stopped?

Because the pope and the cardinals do not let other people live their lives in peace of course. They insist on interfering with their sex lives. Or not interfering if they are paedophilic priests. Ironically.

I just don't see the point in "knocking" Catholicism, or Christianity, at all. Nobody has got you over a barrel, making you believe or partake in any way. Why not just leave it?

This Pope thing is bringing out the worst in people. IMHO

Yeah, daring, just like you*J*.

Dense (in a good way) witty writing.
Let's face it, popes in the past did some dreadful things - incited people to go to "holy" war on a regular basis for a start. Today's ayatollas are complete lightweights in comparison. In their days as THE global superpower.

" I also once drew stigmata on my hands and face in felt-tip to freak-out my Catholic classmates"

Wow! Wasn't she daring!

OH I started listening to the Pat Condell thing. Didn't get past the choir boy thing. He's just a twat. #sensationalseekingeejit

Very good

Letter to Head of Recruitment, Vatican City

here

@worthabutchers

Harking back to Pat Condell (Satan as a Catholic), am I the only one who feels a bit sorry for the Devil?

Banished from Heaven for eternity just because he questioned the status quo, then being given a really bad press and held responsible for every bad thing that human beings do to each other. Is that fair?

Irish Catholic, I think. Don't quote me though.

Just listened to Pat Cordell. Wow!

There was plenty he said I agree with.

Yes, Jesus would be appalled to see what was being done in his name if he returned.

Yes, if there was such a thing as the devil, he would probably be a high up religious, and charming to boot.

Not sure the persecution of the Jews was entirely due to the church though.

What passion. I am betting Pat was brought up as a Catholic, or a Jew.

Greatnan I would think that being in the Hitler youth was probably not much of choice in those times, more a survival tactic. I am not defending him just stating that.