Pope resigning

Because the pope and the cardinals do not let other people live their lives in peace of course. They insist on interfering with their sex lives. Or not interfering if they are paedophilic priests. Ironically.

And they do make people believe anyway, by indoctrinating them from infancy. It's quite hard to break away for some people, because even when they want to they are filled will guilt about it all – because of early indoctrination or, as jings so eloquently put it, because they are indeed over a barrel. This is what people like you, jings, just don't seem to understand.

Some churches, such as the Mormon church, make it extremely difficult to break away. They really harass people. And then there is Islam – apostacy is punishable by death. If that's not an over the barrel sort of threat, what is? Heresy in the christian church used to be punishable by death too. Why do you think atheists kept quiet for the most part until that stopped?

The "indoctrination" is obviously very hit-and-miss since so many of the posters on Gransnet complain about being indoctrinated in childhood and yet maintain a robustly sceptical stance with no sign of guilt. Bags I wish you would accept that not everyone who continues to believe does so as a result of "indoctrination". It's extremely patronising and implies us Christians are all some kind of muppets! Some people arrive at atheism after years of questioning, others arrive at faith. Same process, same journey, different destination.

I do accept that not all believers are so as a result of indoctrination, lily, but I also know that many believers are not believers out of any real choice. I'm outspokenly atheist now, but it wasn't always easy, you know. It has taken a long time to gain enough courage against all the disapproval and the constant blethering about morality being dependent on faith and religion.

How CAN you be a believer not out of choice? You may go through the motions without believing but the nature of belief is that only you know if it exists! Lots of people believe though they no longer go through the motions but I can't claim to spot them in the street. How on earth you know when people are not believers out of choice thoroughly foxes me. Unless, like God, you know the secrets of men's (and women's) hearts.

I'd be interested to know, if it's yet possible to do a comparison, which it may not be, what percentage of people brought up with a religious background, then choose to drop the religion compared with the percentage of people brought up without a religion who then choose to join one. I'm not sure there is a whole non-religious generation yet, so the comparison may not be possible, but my bet is on the latter percentage (i.e. choosing religious faith) being smaller by a significant amount.

There is quite a lot of research on this and related topics. I notice you've avoided answering my question!

In answer to your question... by indoctrination. I'm thinking right now of my Mormon friends and their five adult children, the older ones of whom are about the same ages as my eldest two daughters (late twenties/early thirties). Those kids were totally immersed in indoctrination to the point of hardly mixing with anyone who wasn't a mormon. They were taught, without knowing it was happening, to close their minds to anything that questioned what their church told them. I saw this while the mother was trying to convert me. It was fascinating, but frightening to watch. This is fairly extreme, I admit, but it's what ahppens to varying degrees within all religions. It's indoctrination.

Of course, I do not know what your story is, lily. I'm sure you are a thoughtful person. All I know is that I was most certainly indoctrinated as a child (catechism, for a start, from the age of four), and it was extremely difficult to break out of the bindings. It might have been easier of people hadn't got angry and upset about it but they did. From what I've heard and read, that's common.

I was writing the answer to your wpquestion, lily, while you were mentally criticising me for not answering. I suggest you check the post timings. They can give a clue as to possibilities.

In short, give me a chance to answer, please!

This might be a starter. The Religion and Society Programme at Lancaster University does a lot of work in this area www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/feb/14/richard-dawkins-british-christianity

Sorry!

When a child is told it is wicked for not being able to believe in transubstantiation, at the age of seven, for Christ's sake!, that's indoctrination. When a child is told that they cannot question papal infallibility, that's indoctrination. I don't think my family or my school were unusual.

Bags I'm sorry you were so damaged as a child. I had a lovely Sunday School.

It does make a difference how you were taught. My memories are all "Hymns for the very young" and Sunday School Anniversaries.

Thank you, jings, but actually I wasn't damaged. Being a contrasuggestible little blighter, I very soon thought "to hell with that" and did it deliberately – questioned everything, got into trouble for it, and learned a lot in the process. I don't think I have it in me to have faith. I sometimes wonder what it must have been like to be like that when atheism wasn't "allowed". Hellish, I expect.

The horrid part is feeling you 'should' believe something because religion is made out to be a good thing, and not being able to. I daresay religion can be a good thing, but it certainly isn't a good thing per se. That depends how it is used. Private, personal faith I have no problem with (apart from not really understanding it). It's religious institutions with all their rules and regulations for controlling people that I think are bad. Organised religion is a political tool, and very often a bad one.

It's never easy. One way or the other.

For me it's always been about love. The "Love that wilt not let me go". And that's the long and the short of it.

I was sent to Sunday School, as many of us were, and really enjoyed it, I stayed going to church , even teaching the Sunday school until I was about 16, depending on where we lived, C of E or Methodist.

At 22 I sent my DS to a local church sunday school, as it was nearby - it changed my life, - it was open brethren , and for the first time I actually read and understood the bible, and got baptised as an adult.

Guess what - the bible says NOTHING at all about popes, nuns, reverend this and that, dog collars, christening babies so they don't go to hell,confession, confirmation, bishops, diocese ... I could go on.

Basically all that is asked is that you 'love the lord your god with all your heart, and love your neighbour as yourself', an break bread and drink wine in remembrance.

You surely have to agree, that the God bit aside, if we all treated people like we wanted to be treated, the world would be a better place.

I always maintain Jesus was the first socialist....

jo and susie

susie, my dad used to say that too – that Jesus was the first socialist. As I said above, it is not personal religion and loving attitudes I have a problem with. Those are great.

It's the powerful, political institutions I don't like.

Socialism is a political tool too, of course, once it gets powerful.

Susieb. The greatest commandment of all. I thoroughly agree with you. If I remember as well marriage, the act itself, is not mentioned in the bible.

bookdreamer John 2 1–11?

You know, I'm really glad I didn't have a grumpy "governor of the feast" at my wedding, moaning about the good wine being kept to last.

Actually, at my second wedding meal (second wedding, not second weddingmeal, though, actually, it was that too ), DD, then aged 17, commented that the bubbles in the champagne we had with dinner were smaller than the bubbles in the champagne we'd had at breakfast. Observant creature! It was the better champagne too, though the first was pretty good.

It amused me no end to have a seventeen year old daughter who could pick out high quality champagne so easily!!

So, after all that blether, what has the story about the wedding feast wine got to do with the best commandment that bookdreamer referred to, absent?

Nothing at all. Read the last sentence of her post Bags.