Old people having to sell home to pay for care is discrimination and ageism

Here, here,

Nobody like to 'shop' people - but why do people not 'shop' those people who are clearly defrauding the system. If you saw somebody rob your neighbour's house, or an old lady in the street, or a child in the park - would you keep stum? And yet 'steal' if what they do - and bring the whole welfare system into disrepute too?

However, I can see that 'poo/er' people do use tax evasion and the bonus culture by the very rich as an excuse. If the fat cats can steal 10000000 from the system, surely nought wrong with getting a few bob while working on the black. Both types of fraud have to be tackled. The left only wants to stop the rich, and the right only wants to tackle the welfare 'scroungers'. We need to tackle BOTH.

Dresden, ""Tories or gullible id**ts""

Where do I say this ?

Ivanhoe, it seems to me that if someone on here says something you don't like, you just dismiss them and their comments. Many people posting here have a lot of experience of life and I think that it's worth listening to them and accepting that they have a valid point of view, and some knowledge of the world around them.

It doesn't help your argument to simply accuse posters of being Tories or gullible id**ts.

POGS, """"The problem is they are cheating those who genuinely need benefits. They are causing those in need to suffer because their greed is taking money away from the genuine claimant. The pot is obviously spread more thinly""

If you genuinely believe that if welfare cheats were all stopped, that there would be more money for the genuine claimants, then you are living in genuine cloud cuckoo land.

The Tory's dont believe in the welfare State and so they like to spread their venom to those ready and willing to accept it. And it works.

Ivanhoe

I certainly know people who do 'play the system'.

I know 3 people on disablility who do building work. I know 2 women who were very happy when they 'got pregnant' and they now have lovely homes. They make absolutely no inroads to say anything other than this was their choice of living. I know you will argue with me but it is a truth that is happening all over the country. There is a well known and likeable guy who is on benefits and cleans windows. He too is so cocky about his situation he will stand in a pub and tell us we are all 'bloody barmy to work'. They are there all quite unashamed about it.

That does not mean that I think all claimants are fleecing the system, ofcourse not, it simply is not realistic to say nobody is doing it though.

The problem is they are cheating those who genuinely need benefits. They are causing those in need to suffer because their greed is taking money away from the genuine claimant. The pot is obviously spread more thinly.

I

vampirequuen for anybody on welfare today long or short term, to hear the following would make them sick in my view.

""but as a life choice"".

I find this term offensive, because in my opinion, only people who have never been on the receiving of of means testd welfare State benefits, would use the term with apparant ease.

"Please read it in full" !! Do you think we're at school, Ivanhoe?

vampirequuen, I have just put a posting up on here care of The Guardian. Please read it in full.

I would love to talk with these friends of your daughters , how old are they ?

granjura , So, what's your answer then ?

Ivanhoe, don't tell me you don't know people who 'play the system', who get paid cash, who will not work unless it pays for than their welfare benefits, etc, etc. I also know people who play the systems at the other end of the scale, tax evasion, etc. Imho, BOTH are despicable, fraudulent and wrong. But yes, I have more understanding and sympathy for the former - but neither is acceptable.

I would not be surprised to learn of other Gransnetters knowing cleaners who claimed benefits and were paid in cash. I have encountered a number of tradesmen who suggested a discount if I paid in cash – not that they were claiming benefits so far as i know, but they were obviously planning to evade tax. It' still defrauding the system.

It's openly discussed. They feel no shame in living off the state. They don't see why they should work.

vampirequuen, My next question is, how do your daughters know this about their friends ?

Of course they do or I wouldn't have said it. Their friends are not doing anything illegal but their actions are at odds with the reason the welfare state was set up. It is no longer used as safety net but as a life choice.

vampirequeen,

""They believe in the welfare state but they know too many people who play the system""

Are you saying that your daughters actually "know" people who play the system ?

My daughters are 25 and 28. They are unusual amongst their peers in that they vote. This a a group of voters who don't remember Thatcher let alone a time before Thatcher. This should be Labour's new core vote but they a apathetic. One told me that it's nothing to do with her. She knows Labour are more likely to protect the welfare state but leaves it to others.

My daughters vote Labour. They don't want to belong to a revolutionary party. They like the party the way it is. It reflects their desires and expectations. They don't want a socialist ideal. That was our dream...it's not theirs. They want security. They want their hard work to be rewarded. They believe in the welfare state but they know too many people who play the system. They're not looking for revolutionary change and political upheaval.

The world has changed Ivanhoe. We are political dinosaurs and, like it or not, within a generation will be consigned to history.

vampirequeen Since moving to the North-east I have discovered that it is not at all unusual for people not to vote because they consider it's something exclusively for posh/rich people. Posh/rich people are those who own their own houses and don't do manual work. This attitude seems to extend across all age ranges. I never encountered this viewpoint when I lived in London. It's not apathy; it's a feeling of complete disengagement from the political process and is long-standing.

vampirequeen , you make a good point. But Labour voters didnt vote because New Labour werent Labour, they were Thatcherite.

Labour lost their core voters in 2010 because Tony Blair adopted Thatcher's free market policies.

Forget to put the link to my turnout info

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8672976.stm

manner

I wish we could edit our spellings lol

What about the apathtic? You blame those who voted Conservative but what about those who don't/can't be bothered to vote. Many of them are from '... the bottom end of the social and economic ladder who are targeted and discriminated against...'

Look at the turnout in 2010. An average of 61% over the country with the lowest turnout in Hull West which mainly consists of a very poor part of the city. Perhaps if they and people similar to them in less safe seats had got off their backsides and voted, Cameron wouldn't now be PM.

You can't blame those who exercised their democratic right but happened to vote in a manor you don't approve of without also laying some of the blame at the door of Labour voters who didn't bother to vote.

They are all as guilty as each other though Ivanhoe.

"""I am sure we could think of a hundred more examples if we wanted to.""

Yes Im sure we could, gillybob.

But it never fails to amaze me how its always the people at the bottom end of the social and economic ladder who are targeted, descriminated against. And not the already rich!.

Oh Ivanhoe I was wrong, you do need me to explain !

To sum up:

To milk the system means to take advantage of a set of procedures beyond what those rules were designed to provide.

Whether it be MP's claiming expenses (your example), someone claiming a benefit to which they are not entitled, claiming housing benefit with £75k under the mattress, claiming unemployment benefit and working "on the fiddle" etc.

I am sure we could think of a hundred more examples if we wanted to.