Oscar Pistorius

Sorry forgot to make the link live www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/visagie-can-find-some-peace-at-last-1.219358

Tragic deaths related to 'mistaken identity' do happen in South Africa, this was another high profile case from some years ago http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/visagie-can-find-some-peace-at-last-1.219358

Also - re the post (can't remember who it was now) about will South Africans now use this as an excuse to get rid of unwanted partners, much easier to contract a 'hit man' as is alleged in the Dewani ("honeymoon") murder case ... her family have not had the satisfaction of closure (because her widower successfully fought extradition).

I have a feeling that the truth will out in the OP case.

Like you Tegan I do find it all fascinating. There are so many points where I want to ask "what are you basing this on?" "or "What calculations brought you to this conclusion? Perhaps it's having a daughter who's a research scientist and a son who's a would be quantum physicist. Sadly for the people concerned the whole thing could easily unravel and we may never know the real truth.

We need to remember that this was simply a bail hearing. Both prosecution and defence made unsubstantiated claims which, if they are pursued in court will have to be backed up by evidence. For example, the prosecution claimed that the angle of trajectory of the bullets showed a) that they were fired by someone standing up and b) that Miss Steenkamp wasn't sitting on the loo but "cowering" beside it. The defence claimed that she had an empty bladder so that proves she simply went to the loo for normal purposes and wasn't hiding or trying to protect herself from attack.

Surely the forensic information will be vital in this case and I'm questioning whether there will be a few loopholes to be found by the defence. If he said he put his legs on after the shooting there should be traces of stuff from the gunshot on them? If, however he had aready put his legs on before he shot her then he is lying. And they'll know from where she was shot and the bullet holes in the door where he was when he fired the gun. And also whether he opened the verandah door after the shooting [it should be on cctv camera?]. I know this is a horrible event but can't help but find it fascinating. And any contamination of the evidence will result in a verdict of not guilty or manslaughter.

j08

Not mocking the afflicted, of course! #wellperhapsabit

We have to get it sorted out on here first though.

We simply do not know the answers to any of these questions and everything is speculation. We can't really imagine what it is like to feel such fear of violent intruders (although Grannyknot's posts have been very informative on this point), or how vulnerable one might feel if one had no legs, or what one would do in the heat of the moment in a state of terror. I'm sure all these questions will be raised when OP eventually comes to trial but the course of the investigations so far has not done much to reassure the world about the legal system in SA.

Surely if you thought there was an intruder in the house the first thing you would do is check where your girlfriend was and if she was ok before firing guns indiscriminately. I would be more than a bit annoyed if my partner didn't check where I was and if I was ok if he thought there was an intruder in the house. Why did he not notice she was not in bed? All seems really strange to me but he is very famous and will no doubt have a very expensive defence team!

Is he not at risk ? If my daughter/sister/cousin had been killed would I not want to visit him and ask for an explanation ?
I listened to the whole thing this afternoon and I could tell which way it was going to go very early on.

I have been thinking about this a lot as having been following the court hearing on twitter.

I never thought I had a violent bone in my body until 3 years ago when my husband left me. I wanted to hit him over the head with the remote control he had in his hand at one stage. This was such a shock to me. Never thought I could feel that way.

That sounds silly I know but now, I think, if I thought anyone was in my house and I had a gun I could actually fire indiscriminately until I thought whoever was there would no longer be a threat to me any more. No gun, then I would find something else. In other words I would act first and think later.

And I think, but obviously don't know, I would do the same if anyone else was in the house with me.

I have always regarded South Africa as being very violent. Perhaps wrongly, but that it was the media portrays. My children live in Texas and I don't regard it as being as violent as South Africa. I just don't get that feel. However I've never been to South Africa so can't relate to it.

What I'm trying to say in a very long winded fashion, who knows what we would do if we were threatened or thought we were threatened and how we would react. Things happen in a split second and you react accordingly. Life changes just like that!

I don't think he meant to kill her and it was a terrible accident but that is just incidental to this post.

Maybe he didn't mean to murder his partner, but it seems fairly clear that he intended to murder whoever was in the toilet.

I do agree about the state of prisons in South Africa; they seem unsuitable for someone who is disabled. However there is surely a way round that problem, such as keeping him at the police station, as has been the case up to now.

Will there now be carte blanche for anyone in Sourth Africa to kill their partner and claim they thought they were shooting an intruder?

One of the reasons given for Pistorius being given bail is that the prisons in South Africa are so violent that there would a strong risk of him being injured whilst in custody. The SA government do not want that broadcast to the world. I am also inclined to agree with the magistrates summing up and think that there is no evidence that he would fly off and attempt to disappear. I am also inclined to think that he does not pose a threat to the general population in SA.
Saying all that I do think that a lot of his defence so far does not hold water, but to prove that he murdered his partner beyond reasonable doubt will be difficult I suspect partiularly given the level of incompetence shown so far by the SA police.

He was living in a gated, "secure" estate.. he had apparently left the balcony doors open...

If I was truly worried about intruders would I leave the window on a balcony open??

It is hard not to speculate... innocent until proved guilty and all that.

Bail given maybe because he is so high profile it would be difficult for him to disappear & if he did would that be used as part of the prosecution evidence that he was guilty?

Either way looks like he wanted to kill whoever he thought was in the toilet.

Perhaps you have to live there to know....................

Ana, I agree, but usually in those kind of cases it is clear that the killing was in self defence. At least, normally the killer has had had very good reason to fear for his own life or that of his family.

OP apparently shot 4 times at someone he couldn't see on the basis of a strange noise. As I have no experience of South Africa I cannot say whether he was justified in reacting so strongly but surely shooting at someone 4 times, suggests an intention to kill rather than disarm or disable?
,
I am not questioning his defence, just saying that even if he had shot a burglar rather than his girlfriend, wouldn't that be a bit worrying in these particular circumstances?The supposed intruder was cornered in a very small room and plainly was not posing an immediate threat to OP or anyone else.

Basically it boils down, in my opinion, to whether it's ok to kill someone you can't even see, just because they might be an intruder who may become a threat to you.

It may be that in South Africa this kind of behaviour is acceptable and is not considered unduly violent. Indeed, I suppose from the fact that bail was granted that this is the case.

Although there have been cases recently in the UK where a householder/shop owner has killed a suspected burglar and not been charged...

Agree Dresden. He killed someone!

He's out on bail! #wondersifhemightgetoff!

I appreciate that South Africans have good cause to be concerned about armed intruders, but I am surprised that OP has been granted bail. Is it ok to shoot
4 times at a suspected burglar who is cornered in your loo, and you can't even see,in SA? Does that not show a scary level of disregard for human life? Am I being naive about this case?

I feel that there maybe there is some extra leniency being shown to OP because of his fame, or maybe the death of a woman is not very important?

I can't see the same level of leniency being shown in UK in similar circumstances.

Oh....... If she locked the door.......

That does put a certain spin on it. I wouldn't bother in the night when only DH was in the house.

But is it hard evidence?

annodomini The inspector (Botha) was investigated after the incident when he and a colleague were accused or shooting at a minivan while drunk and it was decided that there was no case to answer. (No one was injured or killed.) Now it's reared its head again and one can't help wondering whether there is political motivation in that.

Bit of a mess isnt it. In more ways than one. SA does not have a lot of luck with its star track athletes. The three most famous...

Zola Budd - remember that controversy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zola_Budd

Caster Semenya - accused of not being a woman after she won two gold track medals, and treated very, very poorly by SA authorities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

and now this.

You would think that an Inspector under investigation for murder would be suspended from duty. Such a high profile case should have been put in the hands of an officer of higher calibre, surely.