Is a child murderer vulnerable?

Did anyone watch "Black Mirror" (Channel 4) this evening? I think it has some relevance to this discussion and in a way shows the logical outcome of the belief in "an eye for an eye".

j08 I don't think "twaddle" can be bumptious any more than it can be self-effacing. Surely only a person can be bumptious – and I am sure you wouldn't mean deliberately to insult me.

I entirely agree with the view that in a civilised society, with a fair judicial system, prisoners should be adequately protected whatever their crime. Yet, yet I cannot find it in my heart to feel sorry about what has happened to this man. It's not a matter of him getting what he deserved - there are many criminals whose crimes are equally heinous, who, thankfully, do not get murdered in prison. No, it's more a feeling that every blow given to him was one for that poor helpless child. Heart over head, I guess. Pam, your name says it all,

Pam My sympathy and admiration too.

pam

I just want to say thank you to you all, for your support and generous comments, you have made me feel very welcome at GN and I look forward to getting to know you all.

No, he isn't a loss to society, but this shouldn't be able to happen in our prisons and we don't want, surely, to become a vigilante state.

Exactly, positivepam very well said. What strength of character you display having suffered the loss of your son in such a dreadful manner.

positivepam many sympathies for your sad loss but also my admiration on your strength in how you are managing such a difficult situation that many of us cannot imagine. I think your attitude has a lot to teach us all about trying not to become bitter and vengeful.

positivepam.
No, you certainly haven't waffled. What you've done is to tell of this terrible crime. You've been very clear, and how you've expressed your experiences and given your opinions is admirable. Your strength shines through.

I have just got to this thread! This guy should probably have been on a seclusion rule of some sort. I am in no way suggesting sympathy for him he needed locking up for good.

With regard to whether or not abused children going on to repeat abuse, I would lay bets that this guy probably suffered a great deal of abuse and neglect as a child.

I suspect those perpetrators who use extreme bullying and physical violence to partners or children are very likely themselves to have suffered seriously abusive and neglectful behaviour of this kind as children. Lack of proper nurturing and proper bonding in just the first year or so is a major factor for such behaviour later on.

Those persons who have been raised in functional families with good basic emotional care as children, are much better equipped to weather all sorts of difficulties and although if some of this "group" do suffer abuse and experience a lot of distress; I suspect they would be far less likely to re-enact the behaviour.

Your post puts it all in perspective Pam. Prison sentences are often far too short, and don't reflect the gravity of what has happened. Murderers get released on life licence and, all of a sudden, they start complaining that they've done their time, so why can't the authorities stop bringing up the crime they committed? They are serving the life sentence until they themselves die, albeit supervised, then unsupervised, in the community.

The public are not always aware, but quite a few lifers get called back to prison, even ten or more years after release, if their behaviour gives cause for concern. It's a tough road to re-release, once a lifer has been recalled.

positivepam, I can only echo Mishap's post.

pam - you have expressed it so much better than any of the rest of us who have not suffered the terrible tragedy that befell your son.

I can understand your anger at the short sentences - I too have a big concern about the way that a life sentence is eroded until the victims do not feel that justice has been served - this cannot be right.

But as you rightly say, murder in prison is not right and quite unacceptable, however angry we might feel with the criminal.

Your balanced approach does you great credit and i can only send my admiration and sympathy.

He is a loss to society.

I am so sorry pam. And very angry too. I cannot imagine the agony you must have gone, and are going, through. It is every mother's nightmare.

(((hugs))) to you, although I know that cannot help.

Hi everyone, could I put another view. My son was brutally murdered a few years ago, it was a totally unprovoked attack by two "yobs" just out looking for trouble. He was 17, a lovely boy and the police said nobody had a bad word to say about him, he was just starting college. Anyway, the main offender got the mandatory life sentence and the other was charged with manslaughter and guess what, yep they are both out already. What I have to say is, where is the justice, I wanted punishment, I would have liked them both to stay in prison for the rest of their lives and suffer, but not by the hands of another prisoner, I wanted real justice. The Sun newspaper phoned and asked me if I would have liked the death penalty and no I didn't, to me that would have been the easy way out. And because I said that, they didn't want to know. I just feel we do not get real justice in Britain. We protect the wrong ones, when their appeals for probation came up, they were allowed to see what my family had written about why we didn't want them released but we couldn't find out what they put because of their human rights, please tell me how that can be right or fair?
You never get over this but, I was determined to not let these murderers take over my life and I would not let them have control over me.
I am sorry if I have waffled on a bit, I just wanted to explain from someone who has gone through this heinous crime, I am sure others who have been through this might have a different view. No, he isn't a loss to society, but this shouldn't be able to happen in our prisons and we don't want, surely, to become a vigilante state.

j08 At the time these women were imprisoned no one knew they were wrong convictions. It was a year or more (several more in at least one case) that their convictions were quashed. So at the time they were in prison they were regarded by the general public and by other prisoners as being equally as guilty of wantonly killing their babies as this man was of killing his step child.

I don't think the issue is feeling sympathy for him - its about what constitutes a civilised criminal justice system

Deedaa I cannot feel sympathy for that man. I'm glad that he's no longer alive. The only victim was the innocent wee child.

JO8 - no one is regarded by the state as wrongly imprisoned to start with - at the start the system has found them guilty and they are treated as such in prison - if there for child related offences this can include having to be in solitary for their own safety and being at risk from other prisoners. But anyway, the debate is about the right to be safe whether rightly or wrongly imprisoned and the fact that we cannot allow vigilantes either in prison or outside to administer their own form of 'justice'

If the state sanctions the same sort of cruelty that the perpetrator is in prison for in the first place we cannot be regarded as a civilized society. We should not rejoice in the death of this man - evil though he was - in the confines of a prison that is funded by us through our taxes. If we do we are complicit in that evil.

We should also be concerned for those who brought about his death. Their actions will have not helped them to rehabilitate from their own crimes. I worry about a prison system where it is possible for an act of murder to take place.

absent's "bumptious twaddle" is the essence of civilization. We have thankfully moved on from an eye for an eye.

If a loved one of mine were killed I would I am sure feel intemperate anger and hate towards the perpetrator; but I would expect the state to deal with him/her in a civilized fashion with a life sentence.

As soon as we have one law for good people and another for the bad we will have lost a cornerstone of society. We cannot have a situation where it is regarded as fine to kill some people, but not others.

The principle that one should not kill is basic.

This case is totally different to a woman being wrongly imprisoned for the death of her child. There is no dispute at all over this creature' s guilt. Or his evil cruelty.

Absent that is bumptious twaddle.

Oppps sorry predicted text on my phone.

Well said absent. Hit the nail on the head.