Pope Francis

The thing is, if intelligent and caring Catholics don't want their church or its leader to be criticised, they should be doing something to change some of the ante-diluvian attitudes that it espouses. They should be fighting to bring it out of its backward looking rut. And they should stop whining and try to effect change when intelligent and caring people criticise what is wrong with the RC church.

Look it up.

What the fu-- is 'casuistry'?!

Many of us humanists, and members of other religions worry a great deal about the effect of the Vatican and its power structure on:
child abuse
covering up child abuse
negative impact on poor women's rights to choose - as rich women do - when to have children
negative impact on women'g general reproductive health (early pregnancies and too many pregnancies often in places where maternity care is poor)
and so negative impact on the life chances of girls
negative impact on the fight against aids
negative impact on attempts to restrict population growth.
negative impacts on attempts to alleviate poverty - large families really do not help poor people
and finally
negative impact on devout catholics who do not appear to be getting the support they would like due to the vatican's rules on having a celibate male priesthood.
That about sums it up.

Nobody on the thread said Catholics are stupid but mamanc lowered the tone by implying this was done. Maybe she may have been was confused with another forum

The only quote I've come across from the new pope, from not even knowing he existed before last week, was misogynistic. So far that and his talk of the church being for the poor is all I know if his attitudes. I judge the first thing to be stupid and the second not to be stupid. Time will tell whether he does anything real and practical to improve the lot of the poor. He could start by abolishing the anti-contraception rule/advice.

What a load of old tosh
Men in a frock (X 2 )
Taken in by this balderdash

And

Worrying that he's a Jesuit (no reason given)

The quotes you mention do not say Catholics are stupid, though they do imply that Catholicism is stupid. This is a perfectly valid view to hold and to express.

The Jesuit order is know to engage in casuistry. Makes people wary and worried. Also a valid view to take and to express.

Mishap, none of the posters have said that Catholics are stupid. What some have said follows:

What a load of old tosh
Men in a frock (X 2 )
Taken in by this balderdash

And

Worrying that he's a Jesuit (no reason given)

Now this may have been satisfying for those who posted those comments but it doesn't add to debate.

There are members of this forum who are willing to discuss the issues with courtesy and I absolutely respect them and it is always good to learn about people's views and why they hold them. But, sadly, any thread on religious matters frequently descends into assertion and tired old insults.

This thread is about the new pope. He's been in place for a matter of days and as I said before, we (those of us in the RCC and those outside who are are sisters and brothers in faith from other traditions) are waiting with hope and interest. It is far too early to make any pronouncement about the future, but it would be good not to prejudge.

Thanks, lily. I didn't hear whatsisname, but mightn't he have been referring just to the majority in this country, who don't have any particular faith? He certainly is right about people like me who have no faith – it simply isn't an issue, so its importance is zilch.

That's not saying it's not important to people who have faith. I understand its significance to them, but they are a minority in the UK now.

Bags. Yes, belief is what makes a faith different from any set of opinions or activities, however laudable. A de B rather dismissed it this morning but I think it may be more important than he admits or knows. And - I think I've said this before but it is worth emphasis - it is a mistake to assume that we are now living in a post-faith world. Many people 'believe without belonging' including, apparently a number on GN. Many claim to belong, over half the population of the UK, for example and many, many more in other countries.

And I'm behind you, too. Please credit us with the maturity and intelligence to be able to separate out our belief about whether there is a god, from issues affecting not just organised religion but many other walks of life where greed, corruption and harm to children occur. Good people can come from anywhere, and I think I can recognise a good person whether they are religious or not.

Right behind you, mishap. Well said. Also, if all everyone did was try to be good, there'd be far fewer problems in the world. Let's not dismiss trying to be good as not enough.

Actually, I'm struggling to think of what else there is to improve life, apart from trying to do the right thing all the time. Are you referring to faith as the "what else religion is about", lily? (that's not a poke but a genuine question)

mamanC - I think it is important not to confuse a questioning mind on the subject of religion with being convinced that "all Catholics are at best stupid and at worst evil."

None of the posters here have said that - some ex-catholics have expressed their distress at what they have been through; some agnostics have expressed their concerns about some of the things done in the name of religion; and some atheists have expressed their view that there is no god.

No-one has said that catholics are "stupid" and "evil" - what they have said is that some of the effects of the teachings have been negative: large poor families, paedophile priests for example. I cannot imagine that most thinking catholics are happy about either the poverty or the priests in question.

It is very important that those of theist beliefs do not over-react to others' concerns and extrapolate - it cuts off dialogue and that is a dangerous route.

We are all aware that there are numerous people of intelligence who have a religious faith - the fact that we do not all share that faith does not mean that we have to brand them as stupid - and I would never do so. Just because I hold a different view does not mean that I think they are stupid; and hopefully they do not regard me as stupid.

Do not be defensive - it cuts off debate!!

MiceElf. From one "bog-standard" Catholic to another, thank you for your post. You speak with knowledge, calmness intelligence and perception. For those people who are so convinced that all Catholics are at best stupid and at worst evil, I would like to suggest you visit the website of the Tablet, an international Catholic magazine where you will be able to read articles written by other people of intelligence, knowledge and perception. As a footnote to those people who seem unable to discuss anything on the internet without being vicious, society is suffering from fanatic fundamentalism not only from those within religions but also within the secularist/atheist camp. And also among the grannies of gransnet it would seem! The wisdom of age....??

Yes I take your point - but I do not think he is trivialising religion. He is leaving those with supernatural beliefs to value those just as they do now.

He is leaving religion aside and just saying that there needs to be something to help kindness and social cohesion within an essentially non-theist society, now that supernatural beliefs have subsided for most people.

I do not think this threatens or trivialises the beliefs of others, or belittles the fact that these are of "supreme importance" to them. No-one could be in any doubt about that.

The fact that non-theists are "trying to be good" (which itself I do not think should be trivialised) and to find systematic ways of reinforcing this for those who require it can only be good for everyone. Far from being trivial it is of fundamental importance.

Mishap trying to be good, as A de B suggested, is a human aspiration central to but not exclusive to most religions. Religion is not only about trying to be good, and as the Rev Richard suggested, what else it is about is of supreme importance to believers. Trivialisation is the right word.

Eloethan - on the contrary I am saying that those who hate the RC church often do so with a great depth of feeling and bittnerss. The RC church needs to take this on board and respond accordingly.

I too have no personal axe to grind - but I do feel for these people. One of my friends ackowledges and frequently makes reference to the damage that being brought up as a catholic has done to her life - I can see it in how she leads her life.

But equally there are those who speak positively of their religious upbringing.

Lilygran I do not think de Botton is seeking to "trivialise" religion - he is recognising the value of the community and moral aspect of religions, whilst also recognising that not everyone can subscribe to the supernatural aspects. I think he is looking at the subject very seriously and trying to look at ways of social cohesion being fostered in an essentially non-religious society. I do not agree with all he says, but certainly do not think what he has to say is trivial.

Eloethan you sound very wise ! Glad we can have discussions without offence being taken as that is never my intention.

Of course that unborn child victim of rape no less important it would be the mental strain of mother.

Our priest gave good sermon on abortion few years ago when he said never condemn the person as you do not know whatbtheynfoing through which summed it up well I thought. He is a very kind man they priests are not all like that sadly.

Yes I agree whenim pope Francis looks very kind to me can tell a lot from faces but gosh he has so much to deal with hope he can

Alain de Botton was on Radio 4 this morning explaining to the Rev Richard Coles that there were some aspects of religion that he thought were too valuable to be restricted to people who believed in the supernatural. What people need, he said, was a kind of guidebook to living. And he thought ceremonial was probably a good idea as well, to mark important points in people's lives. So he has written a manifesto for non-believers who don't want to deny themselves the non-magic bits of religion. Richard suggested that the experience might be different for a believer but Alain explained that since the belief was based on a fallacy, it didn't really matter. I think the non-religious Sunday assemblies have been mentioned on GN. I don't know whether to rejoice that someone thinks religion isn't just evil middle-aged men in frocks or whether to despair at the trivialisation. Respect to the Rev Richard.

I respect many Christians, Moslems, Jews, etc. I think their religions are just so much storytelling and self-delusion. I profoundly disapprove of the formal religious hierarchies – the men in frocks – because of the severe damage they have wrought and continue to cause in the world.

I feel uncomfortable about the Catholic Church. But I respect all Christianity.

Just saying.

I remember nuns who had been raped in ? Uganda having D&Cs to ' investigate any infection'

Mishap Are you perhaps suggesting that people who criticise catholicism are in some way "bitter and twisted"?

Speaking only for myself, I have absolutely no personal axe to grind. I have a vaguely CoE background, in the sense that my mother would describe herself as "C of E" on a census form. Other than assemblies at school (which I enjoyed) I did not have a religious upbringing.

I think it's understandable, though, that if people have had a particularly bad experience of a certain religion this is likely to affect their view of that religion. I think it's important that their voices are heard.

I just don't like religions - they are by their nature divisive.

I do think it's important to differentiate between the powerful organisation, with the Vatican and its overarching policies, the belief in a god, and the people within the church (and all other organised religions). I detest the organised cover-up of ongoing abuse of children within any organisation, feel indifference to the choice of people to believe in a god or not, and take individuals as they come, whether we agree about religion or not. From what I have seen of Pope Francis so far, he looks like a down to earth sort of person, instantly likeable, and I heard a news commentator say he was not opposed to the use of condoms for protection from AIDS and other diseases. I hope he cuts through the politics and alleged corruption in the Vatican, which is an awful lot to ask of a man his age.

It might be worth asking why those on here who detest the RC church feel that way - unlikely to be random.

MiceElf You say: "Sadly, what happens there [developing world] is that, for the most part, men have the upper hand and women have little or no power ..."

Surely that's exactly what happens in the RC church (and most other major religions) - men run the show - and religions reinforce the principle that male authority over women is both divine and the "natural" way of things.