Paedophiles have a mental health condition...

Paedophilia is not a mental health condition/illness but a sexual urge that paedophiles believe is normal and acceptable. They often abuse children of a particular age because they think that is the age children should experience sex. They convince themselves the child enjoys it and often say the child tempted them to initiate the sex. However they know it is wrong because they groom the child in a way which makes them feel it is their fault and no one would believe them if they tell. They target vulnerable families often single mothers with low self esteem. They are despicable predators and should be locked up. Some abused children will go on to abuse because all children think what happens in their families is normal until they are old enough to realise otherwise. Many adults who have been abused do not. I have worked with paedophiles and they are highly manipulative. Paedophiles cannot be cured and all children should be protected from them.

Are not all priests bound by vows which include celibacy?

Are priests who break this vow, whether with Man, Woman or Child all excused on the grounds that they couldn't help themselves?

BEING a paedophile is not in itself a crime, ACTING on their desires is a sin and in most cases a crime. All of us have to control our needs, wants and longings, otherwise society would break down. Are we saying that only Paedophiles have 'uncontrollable' desires?

I meant, with some of them it could be a mental illness.

Not sure of the difference between an out-of-control phobia or obssession, and mental illness.

Yes, Galen unimaginable thoughts might flit through our heads, but the difference is we would never carry them out. Paedophiles have several obstacles to overcome before they abuse, not just their knowledge that what they want to do is wrong. They also have to persuade themselves it's ok to do it, create opportunities to abuse, separate children from their protectors and overcome the protests of the child, then secure their silence (David Finkelhor's model - a man whose work deserves the Nobel prize). That takes sophisticated planning, not the meanderings of a mentally ill mind.

Nice to hear from hop VQ how are you?
I heard the interview! I agree in part, just as I agree that no one who is completely sane can commit murder in cold blood!
I think we would all agree that there are circumstances in which we could all murder someone! (I have certain DWP decision makers in mind who state that a walk in shower is a readily available aid!)
But we are sane!

vq brave of you to share that and I agree with you. Child abuse is the ultimate betrayal of precious children who deserve protection. If we could lock paedophiles up forever, we wouldn't need to find treatments that work. Chemical castration without accompanying therapy unfortunately isn't very effective as it doesn't change the thinking patterns of a paedophile, nor does physical castration. Nothing excuses harm done to children. Makes me so angry when I hear these justifications trotted out. As you say, when they know how much harm is done from their own experience, they should know better. Sadly, those abused children who find a distorted way of coping with the confusing feelings and actions inflicted on them can end up being corrupted, and become abusers themselves.

Thankfully, there are many more abused children who have become responsible, protective adults despite their experiences, and so many of them have made it their life's work to help children to be safe.

I'm glad my post stimulated such discussion. I have to admit I can't think of paedophila in a logical manner. As a survivor it's too personal to me. I don't think these people need treatment. I think they should be locked up and the key thrown away. However I don't want then to be inhumanely treated. Just let them all live together away from anywhere or anything that allows them to access children. We will never be able to control their minds but we can control their bodies so I think they should be chemically castrated too.

I know the Archbishop has to go down the line of hate the sin and not the sinner but I worry that this will lead to excuses being made. I don't believe that having been abused is an excuse. If anything it's worse as they know how it feels and yet still inflict that on some other innocent.

My reference to kliptomania (even spelt it wrong ) was actually crass. Sorry.

God no!! Never an excuse for abusing children!!!!

Compulsive behaviour, then, that has escalated out of control? I can see what you mean Jingle. Addictions and phobias can also be described this way, but they are not necessarily mental disease, rather learned behaviour that can be unlearned to greater or lesser degrees, depending upon how entrenched they are. Sex offenders who have been corruptedby other paedophiles/abusers to such a degree that their paedophilia is uncontrolled eg networking paedophiles, serial offenders who are exclusively attracted to children, may occasionally be mentally ill and always compulsively focusing on children. We may see them as sick or diseased in the head because we think how on earth can someone act like this and not be mentally sick, but sadly they aren't.

I think that's what I was getting at when I said paedophilia may be quite distinct from sexual abuse j08, but I think there are few abusers who can't help themselves. I think it's a bit like a rapist using the excuse that they have uncontrollable sexual urges that they can't resist. I don't think we would accept that and I don't think we should accept paedophilia as an excuse for abusing children.

I guess I define it in this case as something that takes over in someone's head to the extent that they cannot overcome it. Like cliptomania for example.

I don't know what treatments are available for it - if any.

How do you define mental disease, Jingle? Paedophilia is not caused by mental illness, nor cured by psychiatric treatment for mental illness. It is often dealt with by the psychiatric and psychological professionals, where forensic services are involved, but only to the extent that any mental illness can be treated in order that the sexual offending may be addressed effectively.

Of course, in many cases, it is a mental disease. Many perpertrators ask to be kept locked up as they know they cannot help themselves.

But all perpertrators have to kept away from the general public, or at least watched closely. The locking up should, and I think/hope does include treatment for the condition.

The Archbishop has said nothing new.

Well said whemin. I was a foster carer and often cared for children who had suffered abuse, by parents who had no mental illness but had been abused as children themselves. The abuse being accepted as 'normal' (a learnt behaviour) I am still in touch with several of the children (now adults) who went on to be adopted, who have not grown into abusive adults.

I heard an extract from the interview with the cardinal on 5Live last night. So it's not accurate to say that 'we only have the words said mediated by the BBC Africa'. the interview can be heard here

What an excellent post when.

The problem with the disease or medical model is that it takes away responsibility from the perpetrator (who then becomes a patient) and turns them into a victim. Sexual abuse, like all types of abuse is about an imbalance of power and if we treat the abuser as a victim we overlook this and add to the abuse of the true victim.

I have worked with abusers and victims and like when I often feel sad when I begin to see the child that the abuser once was. Unfortunately many of them have practised their use of this defence for many years and are so used to casting themselves in the role of victim that it can be impossible to get them to admit that they have any responsibility for their actions. (That is if they admit to their actions in the first place; I have rarely met an abuser who was not also a victim of a miscarriage of justice).

When the situation becomes really difficult to manage is when the perpetrator is also a child. Then I think it is permissible to feel true sympathy for both perpetrator and victim. Interestingly, I once attended a training course where it was suggested that children who sexually abuse others are as likely to be victims of physical abuse as sexual abuse. This supports the idea that sexual abuse ( like rape) is about power rather than sex. Paedophilia of course may be something quite different.

The last sentence of your first post!

Thank you for that explanation, Whenim. I totally agree with your last sentence.

Should have added.....some sex offenders are also mentally ill - treating the illness doesn't stop them having urges to harm children - it cures or controls the illness, and places them in a better position to address their sexual offending - nothing more.

I often ponder about the 'disease model' to explain away all sorts of behaviours. It doesn't make them right, but there is an element of 'hurt people, hurt people' in a lot of cases where people do wrong to others. (I'm not defending it BTW).

JessM good response. There is so much that used to be 'not okay' that is nowadays viewed as normal and a lot of that has been beneficial, but sometimes I feel a bit confused by it all.

Research has found again and again that all paedophiles were abused themselves, as children - abuse in the form of emotional, neglect, violence and sexual, or indeed all of those. However, many people who were abused as children do not go on to be abusers themselves.

If they had a mental illness, some could be cured - they don't - it is learned behaviour. Behavioural types of treatment are offered to try to enable them to control their abusive behaviour and manage their sexual attraction to children.

Paedophilia is psychological in as much as it's a tendency, urge or trait, and if it is not expressed by doing harm, all well and good. Acting on those urges is criminal and should be treated as such, not met with excuses.

The only thing I think this article reminds me is that all abusers were vulnerable children themselves, and compassion for the child they were is understandable. I feel no compassion for the adult abuser who harms children, though.

Good points, Jess. And, of course we only have the words said mediated by the BBC Africa, but whatever he said, or meant, I sincerely hope that he was not seeking to excuse. If the behaviour of paedophiles cannot be changed then it is imperative that they are never allowed to have any contact with children, and those who have oversight of them, whether civil or church or professional bodies, have a great responsibility to ensure that that that is complied with.

The trouble with labelling unusual behaviour as "normal" or "pathological" is very very tricky. The history of medicine/psychiatry is littered with behaviours which have been designated pathological and are no longer viewed as such. e.g. promiscuity in young women, masturbation etc.
Homosexuality has variously been viewed as a sin, an illness, a crime and quite normal.
I think it is positive that cardinals are thinking about paedophilia and discussing it, rather than brushing it under the carpet.
I look forward to the comments of whenim... on this thread.

If he indeed qualified his remarks and said it was in 'some cases' then that is fair comment.