Grand National - is it cruel?

Sorry typo error, I meant to put "but nobody seems to bother about the horses that die". And sorry haven't got time to discuss the racing issue as DD is visiting from New Zealand and it is precious time.

You mean Stagecoach Jasper? Wasn't aware that the horse had died? Can you tell me more?

No horses do not love to jump hurdles and they carry on jumping when their rider is thrown because they are herd animals and they follow the other horses. The grand national is not what horses enjoy and the nearest thing to the natural instinct for them is flat racing. I owned an ex-race horse and i also know a top lady in horse rescue who despaired about the grand national and the cruelty that does occur and of course there is a huge amount of money involved, so, say no more. I agree with shysal the jockeys have a choice, the horses do not! Everyone is so upset about the jockey who rode the national winner, who was air lifted to hospital today but not about the horse that died. Time we stopped it I think, why can't we just have flat racing?

Horse slipped after a hurdle, flung him to the ground and then kicked him in the back. I've been worried sick all night about him [especially after seeing him looking so happy in the photos taken this morning] but he's tweeted that he'll be going home tomorrow [hope it's not the morphine talking]. Our favourite jockey is currently nursing a broken collar bone .

How did that happen?

It's not just risky for the horses, I see the National winning jockey Ryan Mania took a serious tumble today.

It's not just risky for the horses, I see the National winning jockey Ryan Mania took a serious tumble today.

I was replying to your first post but agree with the second one as well.

Well said, Tegan

Can't disagree with the gambling problem. In fact was very angry last night when I stayed up to watch the re run of the race to see that Ch4 had an advert for one of those awful pay day loans companies [assuming, perhaps that many people had lost money they couldn't afford on the race]. Not sure what is being done about these despicable companies.

We have to prioritise things in life. And, given that racing isn't going to be banned I assume that I put far more effort into trying to make it safer than most of the people who listened to the programme this morning. The horses did have a choice yesterday. Chicago Grey [one of the favourites] decided he wasn't too keen on the fences, jumped very slowly and deliberately and was pulled up. Auroras loved every minute of it and finished a fresh horse. When Katie saw that Seabass was tiring she put no pressure on him to go faster but nursed him home. Auroras probably jumps stone walls at home [I know when Harvey was younger he used to take them out and about doing all sorts of things]. Every last detail of yesterdays race will be scrutinised by the BHA and lessons will still be learned and changes will continue to be made. There are plenty of animal welfare issues that need resolving; I sometimes feel that racing is just used to take the limelight away from other things.

I think it is a shame that horse racing could be demonised because of objections to the dangers of the Grand National. It is like any other activities involving animals - as soon as the stakes, profits and kudos become astronomical, the animals are pushed beyond their limits. Good to see that the Kennel Club started to make progress when Crufts was taken off air. If only horse deaths could be eliminated when they result from the actual race, the outcry would subside.

One interesting fact discussed this morning on the Big Question on TV was the worry that gambling on the Grand National since last year. It seems that whenever we hit hard times, gambling soars- and this is a serious worry. I've personally known 2 families totally ruined by gambling, including my favourite cousin who spent 2 years in prison because of it.

People who get injured cycling, skiing, or even taking the tube have a choice - horses do not. But I agree there are worse things to worry about - which does not mean it is not worth trying to improve things in other fields, surely?

Sorry about the repetition of "put down" - got my mucking words a bit fuddled up there

I take granjura's point but statisitics such as these are not very meaningful. How many people were injured commuting to London in the last 5 years? We don't know but if you included every twisted ankle, broken leg,strained back or hand caught n a door it could well be 200 in a year. How many cyclists were injured on the roads in a similar period? Again, broken legs. arms collar bones kneecaps? People can usually be mended but when horses break a leg they are most often put down, although not always, put down as the humane thing to do. So while I am not disputing your figures, statistics taken in isolation do not prove anything. Tegan is not the only keen racegoer to feel that the sport and its supprters are being demonised. And I think it does put things in perspective to say that there are issues infintely worthier of our indignation and disapproval.

Must say I find it not helpful when someone says 'oh but there is worse somewhere else' as if it is somehow an excuse.

I personally think there are far worse things going on in this world than a few horses that have an amazing life, and if they do sadly fall at a jump and are in pain get put down very quickly; so they don't really suffer. I am afraid I don't understand why people think they are made to race. No horse will run fast or jump big jumps if they don't want to, they refuse, and the rider goes over their head; so I think they do have a choice. As for the oxygen thing, that is not so terrible, runners in the marathon sometimes need oxygen as they have pushed themselves a bit far. So what? At least they are given oxygen and cared for well. Don't get me wrong, I abhor animal cruelty, but racing, in my humble opinion, goes no where near the dreadful cruelty that happens in this world. As for what happens to them when they retire, I feel we should be more concerned about what goes on in residential homes and hospitals which I suggest is far worse than what happens to these horses.

Speed and firm ground. That is being resolved by more and more watering of tracks. And jumping, of course, but you can never eliminate the risk in that [but horses also jump in show jumping, eventing etc..much less high profile therefore ignored by the public]. They also die of heart attacks [which happens to plenty of ponies being hacked out for the day]. I've said before that I can't defend racing and that plenty of people go racing to get drunk and don't care much about what happens to the horses, but the people that maintain an interest throughout the year do care deeply about the horses. The RSPCA seem to be the ones who have worked to make the National safer but, believe me the racing authorities were doing that anyway. The Channel4 programme about racehorses was an insight into what makes a racehorse race; I assume it's still on catchup.

I would like to know that as well to put it in perspective. But one seems like counting ordinary rush hour accidents while the horse racing deaths are due to the "boy racers" taking much bigger risks.

Excessive speed kills more people on roads is it the same with racing horses?

And what's the breakdown of how many horses died in other ways during that time eg colic, foaling; starving out on the moors in a cold winter? Why do people assume that those of us that go racing go to see horses die [as in bull fighting and badger baiting?]. I can't begin to tell you how hurt I feel by that assumption.What are we to do? Not let horses exist at all?They are no longer used for war or ploughing so what purpose do they have; unless, of course we breed them for meat which would be the only way, looking forward, that they could survive?

My goodness that a lot! I didn't expect those numbers!

946 horses died racing in the UK in the last 5 years.

Being discussed now on the Big Question.

Being compared by a vet to bull fighting, badger baiting, etc.

Nice one, Tegan. I missed out on a place with Rare Bob but it was good to know there were no casualties and great to see Harvey Smith looking so chipper.