Working Class whites need citizenship ceremonies

Been away a while. Annodomini, having also been a scrutineer I am aware that the comments are unlikely to be read, but we did often note patterns in the defacing of ballots that raised later comment.

I too admire Frank field. I don't know if some of you remember, but when " Saint Tony" was all powerful ( and I voted for him) he realised that the welfare bill was out of control and he asked Frank Field to compile a report. FF came up with a lot of the solutions that IDS has put forward. TB could not stomach the truth that one of his own was telling him and the report was binned.
I saw the light in 2002. My OH and myself have many heated arguments about TB. OH knows the truth but can't bring himself to admit it LOL.

Yes, I did presume that.

I agree with you , Ana, so I am still left wing, just not loonie!

Surely left-wing merely indicates someone with an outlook or specific position that supports social equality - it doesn't necessarily mean a labour voter!

right, not vote to comment.

FlicketyB When I posted about how silly it would be to suggest that not paying tax would be losing your vote to comment, I did insert the word legally – meaning people not in paid employment. Of course, everybody pays tax in some ways – from VAT to stamp duty and from petrol duty to council tax.

Gillybob, I agree with you completely. I was euphoric in 1997 , like many Labour supporters, and how wrong we were. There are some very good and genuine MPs who work hard for their constituents and are true to their beliefs, and it must be sickening for them to have been allied to the arch war-monger and Bush poodle. I have to smile when I am accused of being a loonie leftie - I have no more time for the professional politicians in the Labour Party than for those in the other parties.
I suppose the answer would be to work from the inside and try to change things, but that would be difficult from here.

It does not surprise me in the slightest Greatnan . What do the expect to do with those of us who may not have made full contributions for whatever reason (not laziness).

When I was younger I was a keen labour supporter and was a fully paid up member for around 15 years. It eventually struck me that everyone (from grass roots up over) was out for what they could get out of it and spent their time voting each other onto various committees (you vote for me and I will vote for you) they would attend the opening of an envelope if there was free food and drink on the go. I started to think that I didn't want part of it any more.

I imagine it is much the same in all parties.

They are even closer today - have you seen the Labour Party's proposals to make benefits be tied to contributions? Pandering to what they see as the views of the masses. How can somebody who has been unemployed/disabled have made contributions?

I fail to see how a citizenship ceremony would make anyone feel more engaged and what's more is there a point in it?

If you are born and bred in the UK then you are a UK citizen surely and no holding your hands up or swearing an oath of allegiance will change that. I think a lot of the reasons for people feeling disengaged from society is because they feel that nothing they do or say will make any difference .Many of the political parties are so close they are virtually touching and many people feel that they no longer have a voice.

I have often thought there should be a space on the ballot paper headed"None of the above." Then you would have a chance to register your dissatisfaction with the choice (devil and deep blue sea springs to mind) while still still doing your duty as a citizen. If the "None of the above" box got more than 50% of the vote there should be a second ballot, where the existing candidates HAD to be replaced. Can't be worse than proportional representation.

Flickety, if you think anyone takes any notice of what people say on spoiled papers, you are labouring under an illusion. I've been a scrutineer and all we did was look at the spoiled papers and confirm that they were spoiled. Some of them contained obscene remarks. Others may have given cogent reasons for not voting, but no-one would remember those the next day.

Spoiling one's ballot is not just daft. It is an opportunity to assert one's views when they are not otherwise represented.

I was utterly opposed to the government's policy or replacing the previous arrangements with police commissioners. The only way I could make this clear was to go to the poll, get my ballot paper and instead of voting for any of the candidates, none of whom I wanted, I wrote clearly that I was opposed to the replacement of the existing committees who ran the police by police commissioners as I considered the old system more democratic.

That seems to me a perfectly acceptable way of supporting the democratic system, by voting but in a situation where I was opposed to the change the ballot would introduce to express this opposition on my ballot form.

I also think that those who fail or actively connive to avoid paying taxes lose their right to complain. Why should they want to complain about something they haven't paid for?

janthea The suggestion is ceremonies rather than classes. It could be seen as racist; it's certainly patronising in the extreme.

nanaej. I too belonged to a political aware family. I was a local councillor for 4 years. My daughters are also politically aware though not to a great depth. My elder daughter lives in Europe and therefore has different views regarding the EU.

Isn't just suggesting lessons for the WWC rather 'racist'.

Don't spoil the ballot paper! #justdaft

I don't see how not voting takes away your right to complain; that seems a very simple-minded equation. You might just as well say not paying tax (legally) takes away your right to complain.

FlicketyB Yes, I agree one should "turn up" even if it's only spoil the ballot paper.

Voting gives you a right to complain about the government. If you do not take part, what right have you to criticise the government that those who did participate choose? DH always says that there may be no one you want to vote for, but there is always someone you can vote against.

Even when I was totally opposed to the government plans to replace police committees with police commissioners I went to the polls and spoiled my ballot paper by writing comments asserting my objection to the policy on it.

There is much discussion about what children should be taught in history. Surely the history of our democracy and how we achieved our freedom to vote should be included, from Magna Carta to Women's suffrage.

Nor me! I don't like any of them.

I'm beginning to think nanaej 's way of being politically active - getting involved in specific issues and protests, etc. - might be an alternative to voting. I have never missed a vote but feel so disenchanted with our current career politicians that I'm not sure who I can vote for in the next election.

I can quite see why people are becoming apathetic and I don't think putting on nationalistic-type events is going to rectify that.

What Frank Field said is too long to quote here but it's in the Independent - online for those who only read online. He wasn't talking about classes or compulsion, rather inspiring and making the white working class that he knew of old and represented, feel a part of the country. There is a large part of society that does feel alienated, that turns to more radical political parties. He is trying to suggest ways of re-engaging these people.

BAnanas yes, agree with your points. I do think where you live has a direct bearing on how you see FF's views.

Our family have always been politically active. Not ever joined a political party but took local action, joined national protests ,lobbied etc etc, so our kids have followed suit. But they too have friends who never engage in active politics or democracy.

My GD, when the opportunity came, in 2010, to cast her first ever vote, tried very hard to persuade her friends to do likewise, quoting the sacrifices made by the suffragettes. Most of them hadn't a clue what she was talking about, not did they care. And these are not WWC lads, but daughters of professional/managerial parents, residents of an affluent 'leafy suburb'. Children just do not learn what made our democracy and why it is important to safeguard it.