Thatcher has died

J08 Well said. I don't want to buy clothes made by seven-year-olds locked in sweat shops or even by adults in similar conditions. I don't want to buy clothes made in a place where emergency exits are barred and the workers are told stay put in spite of screaming fire alarms with the obvious and inevitable consequences.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

As far as I am concerned, Sel, you are preaching to the converted - certainly Gordon Brown was very proud of his 'light touch' with the bankers and I think my view of Blair is pretty clear. However, these threads are about Thatcher, and I can't see how what happened after she left office excuses what she did whilst she was in charge. And surely, the same applies to the Conservative government that took over from Labour as applied to the Labour government that took over from the Conservatives - why did they continue to allow the financial sector to run riot!
Surely you don't exonerate the bankers from any guilt about the global financial melt down?

It is surely significant that there were was none of this criticism on the death of any other PM?

Eloethan I notice many posters love to blame the bankers for the current mess. Before the financial crisis happened, the country was in a financial mess of it's own making courtesy of Gordon Brown, advised by Ed Balls and Ed Milliband. GB created the useless FSA and stripped the Bank of England of it's powers to regulate banks. Labour embraced the PFI with a vengeance, spending like there was no tomorrow and keeping the debt nicely off the books. We're paying for that now and will be for 30 years. GB also sold off the gold reserves at the bottom of the market - how useful that would be now and I wonder what it would be worth.

I and many others are filled with horror at the idea of the Labour Party being back in control of our finances. The cuts which are having to be made now are causing untold distress to so many people but they are happening because of what the Labour Party did to the country.

Well Sel now we've got the banks running the lot - and it's been a great success hasn't it.

I can't believe the picture painted by some of this idyllic Britain pre Thatcher. I remember the unions ran the place. There were outrageous wage demands and if they weren't met, then strikes were gleefully called. Didn't we have power blackouts, rubbish piling up in the street? I seem to remember a very bleak time when there was one strike following another. The country was bankrupt and still the unions demanded more and more.

The fact is, it became cheaper to import rather than to produce here due to the unrealistic wage demands. That was the major cause of the demise of British industry, not Margaret Thatcher. And that unaffordable cost was driven by the unions.

I too am a firm believer in a free market, the nationalised industries were bloated and inefficient - why should the tax payer support them? The car industry was a joke, the labour force was a joke internationally whereas now, productivity and labour are of world standard. The sick man of Europe is no more.

Now more than ever we have to compete. It's an alien concept to a Socialist mindset and that's unfortunate - things aren't going back to the way they were, that's not the way the world works. Everyone isn't equal. I agree too with the comment made about the education of our children. Many are leaving school unemployable, many even leave University with a third rate degree in the same condition. They will face competition for jobs, not from people from the same village but from people in Europe and beyond.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homes_for_votes_scandal

Celebgran - it is not always sad to lose a parent. I disliked my father and felt no sorrow at all when he died.
The sale of council houses was cynical gerrymandering - it was thought, rightly, that people who bought their council houses would be more likely to vote Conservative. Try googling 'Dame Shirley Porter'. Another 'strong' woman - and a crook.

Jo8 One reason for the strikes was the justified fear on the part of the strikers that their employment was about to disappear because of government policies!

She sold off council houses because it was a vote catcher.

The proceeds from the house sales were not used to replenish the council housing stock - such a policy meant that eventually there would very little council housing and most people would have to rely on private, unregulated rentals.

Of course, people in council houses were delighted and those that were able to, bought their houses - who can blame them? But the fact is that such a policy prevented other people from being housed properly and at an affordable rent.

About sweat shops - the same was said about ending slavery, and about child prostitution, etc. I am always surprised that people are prepared to buy very cheap goods from chains which have been shown to use sweat shops.

So wrong to presume we know the relationship with Margaret thatchers children!

Great nan they may not be totally surprised but it is always sad to lose a parent be kind to remember that!

I may not have agreed with all her policies but impossible not to admire her incredible passion for politics and her achievements.

She was an incredible lady.

Selling off the council houses was a bad move. But she did it for what she thought was a good reason - to allow more people to become homeowners and, thereby, have more of a stake in the country. Hoping, I suppose, that that would make them better citizens.

It's a shame that, after all those strikes, most of the manufacturing industries and the coal mines closed down anyway, and now we haven't got anything to get us out of this financial mess.

I can't agree about the sweatshops. I don't want to buy clothese made by seven years olds shut into a factory all the daylight hours God sends. The major charities endeavour to provide alternatives, including making sure the aid is the correct kind and goes where the need is.

Who do you mean by 'Idi'?!

Agree about the bankers.

We cannot reopen mines for the price the miners were demanding at the time of the closures(pro rata) thats the reason they had to close, we could get coal from Australia, Poland, and other far flung places cheaper than we could produce it. We may need to consider reopening mines, assuming we have any of the expertise to do so, we may need to consider "Town Gas"plants, we were threatened a short while ago with restrictions regarding gas from the continent if the weather didn't pick up.We are however likely to leave it to late as usual.
Buy your clothes for as cheap as you can get them,from where ever. Closing down sweat shops does nothing for the workers thrown out of work,they see nothing of the millions we send them in aid anyway.Time to forget that we were missionaries we created enough trouble in that role anyway.I wish Idi was still available to send us some food parcels.
A small African country was sent millions of tins of tomatoes,surplus due to
a glut.No doubt they were welcomed by many, the result however was the closing down of a local canning plant, that couldn't compete it never opened again, the free tins soon evaporated.
Margaret set out her stall, she was aware the unions were ruining this country all the major industries were being affected,something needed to be done, she started the process, it was carried on by others who could see the sense of it, they could always fall back and blame mrs T, which they did and are still doing.No one person is to blame for the mess we are in, and no one person can get us out of it, it is the same now as it was then.Blame the bankers, it was them that were stupid enough to lend US the money we were clamouring for,we knew better than them that we couldn't pay it back but it didn't stop some, many from running up enormous debts, and claiming even more benefits.
We need to forget we had an empire we are rapidly approaching the bottom of the ladder, we are servicer s, workers for others,we have a few with brains, these are not likely to remain here or be replenished,with the appalling education system we have developed.
"Nuff said"

Harrigran...please explain your 'do as you would be done to or there by the grace of god' comment.

Do you mean would I care what people say about me when I'm dead? Well hardly, I'll be dead so it won't affect me.

Do you mean there by the grace of God I might have been related to her? Well in that case I will for once thank God enthusiastically that he fixed it so I wasn't.

I had nothing good to say about the woman or her family when she was alive and I have no intention of changing now she's dead. Surely to change simply because she is dead would be two faced and dishonest....tbh if that's what's expected then I prefer my 'moral code'.

Some people are wondering why the pits weren't reopened. A pit is like a living thing. It needs nurturing. Without the constant care of engineers the shafts and tunnels flood and/or collapse. Once this happens it's impossible simply to reopen on the same site.

The steelworks couldn't reopen because they no longer existed. The machinery had been sold off and many of the sites had been flattened.

Blair - the man who was so close to the Saudi princes. How well he has done since his retirement. Hm......

Re-opening decommissioned mines would have been unrealistic I agree.
Passing legislation to give the unions back their power would have been relatively easy though, especially with the massive majority for Tony Blair's first term.
I'm not on any one 'side' particularly....just curious.

Well, I trust no member would impugn any other member's moral code, Movedalot. After all, who is to be the arbiter of good taste?

Of course we can't blame Mrs T for everything that is wrong today but it now appears, with hindsight, that encouraging what remained of British industry to be sold off or collapse was a serious mistake. You cannot run an economy, it now appears, entirely dependent on service industries, retail and financial services unless a lot of people have the spare cash to keep on spending. Greatnan has made the point about the impossibility of reopening decommissioned mines. Local authorities were forced to 'outsource' services which had always been in-house, like rubbish collection. Just as they were made to sell off council houses and other council property and were prevented from using the income to replace what had been sold. As a result, we do not have enough 'affordable housing' and taxpayers through housing benefit are supporting private landlords who, unlike councils, charge a commercial rate for their property. Not criticising them for that, just pointing out that it is a mad misuse of public funds.

They have just read the entire speech about 'society' on the PM programme and if you were to hear it all I think you would all agree it made a great deal of sense. It is the media (again!) who took it out of context.

Greatnan I think there have been posts for some time which keep blaming MT for things which could so easily have been changed by others during the last 23 years. That is the point I think we are making.

Agreed that taste is subjective, probably based upon one's own moral code and empathy

We have not blamed her for all of the nation's ills - only for her own actions. And taste is subjective.

But how would they know what people have said on this site? How can something they know nothing about affect their grieving? And surely the death of their mother cannot have come as a great shock.
If you put yourself in the public eye, as she did, you make yourself open to having your actions criticised. Many of us would not have said anything had it not been for the fawning , gushing, eulogies from some quarters. We are merely redressing the balance and giving our own opinion. If it upsets some people, that's life!