Measles vaccination

What I'm trying to say is this isn't just a clear-cut thing. There seems to be new vaccines being developed all the time - the HPV and genital herpes ones are relatively new. I even read something about researchers trying to develop a vaccine for the common cold.

It could be argued that such vaccines would be very important for people with seriously compromised immune systems and I can understand that in cases like that probably all sorts of preventative measures need to be taken to avoid infection, including multiple vaccinations.

But drug companies aren't going to go to the expense of researching and producing a vaccine that only a handful of people need to use. They have to ensure that the vaccine is used by as many people as possible. I'm sure I'll be accused of being cynical, etc., etc., but the fact is these huge national and multi-national organisations are working for a profit. In the past they've used "bribes" to encourage the medical profession to use their products and, although I believe this has been curtailed, there are still concerns about their marketing methods.

A couple of years ago there was even a suggestion that everyone over 60 should automatically be prescribed with statins, whether they had high cholesterol or not, just as a "precautionary" measure. Statins can have extremely serious side effects.

The medical profession is now issuing dire warnings about the over use of antibiotics and scientists are working frantically to produce new ones. Though this is a slightly different issue, it is another example of unintended consequences.

I take all those comments, but what about some alternative suggestions?

I don't think you could hold parents responsible if a child infects another with a preventable disease. For example, Absentdaughter exhibited the first symptoms of measles the day that she was booked in for her measles jab (didn't have MMR then). It was not, therefore, my fault if any little friends at toddler group also caught measles. Besides, it is difficult to prove exactly where a child caught an infection.

Also, what about the vaccination against genital herpes – already controversial in some quarters?

Greatnan I think some of the suggestions you propose, like making parents responsible if their child infects someone else, is a slippery slope to all sorts of possible interventions.

The AIDS thing is different. A condom is not a drug and wearing one is not an invasive procedure, whereas forcing someone to have a vaccination is invasive.

Yes, that would be a good idea, jingle.

No. I just don't think it would be right to penalise a parent or the child when the parent is doing something he or she really believes is the best thing for their child.

Perhaps the results of the well managed trials could be made more widely available, and put in language parents can understand.

If we accept that compulsory vaccination would be too difficult, there are still other things that could be done to persuade parents of the importance of vaccination.
I believe doctors already receive a fee for giving certain vaccinations - could that be increased, so they have even more incentive to persuade parents?
Could places where children meet be allowed to demand a certificate of vaccination?
Could parents be held responsible if their child infected other children (I am thinking of the law that makes people with HIV/Aids responsible for infecting others).
Could pressure be put on drugs companies to reduce the price of the vaccine?
Could charities be asked to pay for individual vaccinations?

Just a few ideas - I am sure others have better ones.
Doing nothing until children start dying does not seem a good option.

It is OK if they are exposed to the same pathogens without prior vaccination, then, Eloethan, when vaccination can protect them and restrict the amount circulating for everyone?

Seat belts for children have been accepted by parents, although there have been tragic cases of children being strangled if they were not securely enough fastened. That has not led to belts being unused because parents are more afraid of the slight chance of danger in their use than the high risk of serious damage or death without them.

It may take some highly publicised deaths from preventable diseases before the harm done by that flawed report before the increase in measles cases, and other similar diseases, is slowed down again.

Research is ongoing as to whether there are links between certain vaccines and certain illnesses. I believe some links are already accepted.

As far as I am aware, there have been no longitudinal studies to explore whether there is a correlation between people receiving large numbers of different types of vaccine over several years and the increase in certain chronic diseases (i.e. whether there is some sort of "cumulative" effect).

Drug companies are very big business, which, like any other business, wants to widen its market by convincing relevant professionals and the general public to buy its products. Drug companies (the companies - not the individual researchers) are primarily motivated to make profits. They are not legally required to publish negative research findings.

I still have some concerns as to whether children and young people should be subjected to so many vaccinations and so I don't agree that every child should have compulsory vaccinations.

Are some animal vaccinations compulsory?

The Independent gave the discredited and struck off Wakefield some more publicity recently.

Except it shouldn't be an issue.

Sorry... NOT logical. It's a separate issue.

I'm not suggesting vaccinations are made compulsory, just that there is a compelling argument that they should be. I presume the reason people are not offered separate vaccines instead of the combined MMR is expense. I've also heard that people are less likely to come back for the second and third, even if they want their child to be vaccinated. The combined vaccine overcomes these problems.

I've no idea how such a thing, if it were introduced, would be enforced. Certificates are a good idea. I had to get vaccination against yellow fever when I wanted to work in Thailand.

I don't think the slippery slope argument connecting compulsory vaccination with compulsory sterilisation is logical.

Greatnan the autism/MMR scare was 1998. Can I suggest you read the report with an open mind. It's not about autism it's about deaths and damage following MMR and other vaccinations.
I am not anti-vaccination. I agree that they save lives. But we are not living in a totalitarian state. Compulsory vaccinations are not the way forward. You need to convince parents and if that means offering a choice then so be it.

How on earth would you enforce compulsory vaccination? Even if children could not be admitted to school or nursery without certificates this would not get around those who are home educated. I suspect some interesting case law would ensue. As someone who has to implement oppressive decisions against parents in my working life, I would not want to be the one to implement this particular policy.

I agree with Orca that separate measles, mumps and rubella vaccinations should be available for those parents who choose it, whatever their reasons. The evidence for any medical procedure is changing all the time, and parents have a right to decide for their child.

Answer -from WHO statistics.

"No specific antiviral treatment exists for measles virus."

" In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year."

"In 2011, there were 158 000 measles deaths globally – mostly children under the age of five– about 430 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.

"It remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine. "

"Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Complications are more common in children under the age of five, or adults over the age of 20. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia. As high as 10% of measles cases result in death among populations with high levels of malnutrition and a lack of adequate health care. Women infected while pregnant are also at risk of severe complications and the pregnancy may end in miscarriage or preterm delivery."

Orca, that news report dates from 2006 and refers to the discredited 'research' which linked the MMR jab to autism, so I am not inclined to give it much credence.
Here is a more recent report:

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/measles-death-suspected-Swansea/story-18746494-detail/story.html#axzz2Qtq8bQhQ

Could we get the two measles threads linked, as some important posts could be missed on either thread?

Orca How many child deaths would result from the complications of the diseases vaccinated against? How many were there before vaccination?

How many would be permanently deaf or blind or crippled? Even on this forum, there have been several who suffer the consequences still of their childhood illnesses.

Do I remember you saying you are in Orkney? Perhaps the epidemic has not reached there yet, and you will be lucky and escape it.

If I and my children are protected against a disease, we are also protecting you and your children. If you fail to protect yourself and your children, my baby or my unborn baby may contract the disease from your family with serious results.

MEN deaths
Greatnan

Orca, I fail to see the connection between vaccination and sterilisation, and quite clearly there is an argument for compulsory vaccination and some of us are making it!
An unvaccinated child puts other children at serious risk - and children do not 'belong' to their parents, jingle, they are not chattels. We protect children against abuse from their parents, and failing to protect their health could be seen as a type of abuse.
Certainly it would be a good idea to insist on vaccinations for immigrants from countries where disease like tubercolosis are still endemic. When I emigrate to NZ, there is a list of diseases which I must not have.

No-one should be forced to have the MMR against their will. Parents who are wary should be offered the opportunity to have separate vaccinations for measles, mumps and rubella even if they have to pay for it.

Most schools and kindergartens in the USA won't admit children who do not have vaccination certificates unless there is a medical reason why they haven't. I think it would be a good idea to adopt that approach here.

Orca Would you change your mind if a child dies of measles during this current epidemic?

What next? Compulsory sterilisation?