Daniel Pelka

nightowl I've heard theories about damage to the brain at birth and abuse or neglect causing psychopathy in some people who don't rise above their experiences, developing a skewed view of their power to cause harm. I went to one conference with a memorable keynote speech about the rise to power of psychopaths, with examples of CEOs who treated employees callously and with no regard for their welfare, being compared to presidents and world leaders who have authorised mass murder. Robert Hare (he of the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised) speaks with great knowledge, showing brain scans of psychopaths whose childhood experiences from birth he has records of, and it keeps coming back to environment and/or damage. He continues to look for something to disprove this, but at present these theories have more weight.

Yes. Because they haven't finished the research yet - not by a long way. My point is, we cannot know whether a personality trait can be inherited or not.

The 'depression gene' is still only a theory j08

I'm not necessarily thinking of violent criminals here though; more the 'successful psychopath' for want of a better term, which is why I said someone who appears to have no moral code. I have met a number of people like that, some in very powerful positions. It is recognised that some psychopathic traits can be an advantage in reaching those powerful positions. So how do those people become that way?

I thought thought they decided recently there is probably a gene for depression? So why not other things?

Are n' t they still in the process of deciding what is inherited genetically and what isn't?

Couldn't agree more!

Personality disorders are so misleadingly classified and diagnosed. I have seen several PDs assigned to offenders over the course of time, by different psychiatrists and sometimes the same one, and I have met non-criminals who could be classified as psychopaths or sociopaths. Every serial violent offender I have known has come from a background of neglect, abandonment, cruelty or other sort of childhood abuse, at some stage of, or throughout their childhood. Drugs, alcohol and mental illness will often influence and disinhibit people who you would never expect to commit a serious offence, but these tend to be aberrations and not like the generally criminal violent person whose lifestyle is geared to harming others, and whose personality appears not to be amenable to change.

But one that seems to be becoming more common. I feel it is often used as 'well there's something not quite right, but we have no idea what it is so we'll call it "borderline personality disorder "'

Crossed posts there Galen, it seems we were thinking along similar lines. However, by contrast there is a strong link between sexual abuse in childhood and the development of borderline personality disorder, which suggests nurture rather than nature again. Not a diagnosis I like very much, because of the stigma attached.

I agree completely about the influence of nurture rather than nature but I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here and say that I have come across the odd case (as I'm sure you must have done when, probably more often than me in your line of work) where seemingly loving, ordinary parents have produced an adult child who appears to have no moral code whatsoever. The eternal riddle of the psychopath - born or made? Sometimes it seems clear how they have been made; other times, not clear at all.

Personality disorder may be genetic.

Sure, but if a childhood full of love makes a difference, it is not ALL in the genes, is it?

A child with happy, law-abiding genes brought up by vicious foster parents who brutalise him and teach him to brutalise others has a bad influence from the start. The child of a murderer brought up by loving and caring foster parents learns to be caring himself.

Or would you expect the murderers child to automatically become a murderer, and the other one a saint in a house full of sinners?

Yes, genes interact with the environment regarding physical health and development of certain conditions, but personality disorders, criminality and suchlike are not governed by genes but by experience.

I don't 'like it'
Yes genes are important in things like eye colour, height, propensity to certain diseases, but not to evil.

Like it or not !!

I believe genes play an important part in all our lives.

You agreed with Penstemmon that "If someone had cared more for John Venables when he was a darling little boy maybe his life would not be the living nightmare it is now...for everyone involved and hurt." Nonu.

Does that mean you agree that he would not have done what he did if he had had more love? That his badness was at least partly due to his shildhood, and not completely genetic?

There is absolutely NO scientific evidence for an "evil" gene. Studies on identical twins separated at birth show the importance of nurture over nature in learned behaviour as opposed to genetic traits such as handedness or colour preference.

What an extremely odd question .

The mind boggles slightly.

Have you by any chance ?

To jess.

jane! [tut]

Jess Did you miss that comma out on purpose

Have you any first hand experience of the genetically evil nonu?

I have no source of information , When, I go with my gut feeling .

Doesn"t make me a bad person !

Sometimes grannies know "things" , heyho

What do you found your belief about genetics on, nonu Genuine question - I would like to read your source of this information. There have been a few geneticists who have searched for a criminal gene or cited the XYY chromosome, but this is found in the general, non-criminal population, too.