Scottish independence

Not even in your clan tartan?

I will not wear a burka!!

Aye, but both money spinners Elegran. With all that oil perhaps the Dubai of the North.

Wonder which way Scotland should go aka - gambling den or religious centre?

Oh I don't know about size being important...Monaco and the Vatican City seem to do well enough.

Granny23 - economically vulnerable. Particularly with the rise of India , China etc.
It is hard for small countries to maintain their standing in today's interconnected global economy.
NZ not a good example. Standard of living very low compared to here. Hence 1/5 of passport holders are working abroad.
Are all the little countries that used to be Yugoslavia better off being separate if you take away all the bad feeling about religion etc?
Was the small size of Eire a contributing factor in its recent crashing and burning? - I think it was. My close observation (my sister lives there) is that there was a lot of corruption, favours and woeful unprofessionalism in public life. e.g. "You only get a hospital when your own TD (MP) gets to be minister of health" as someone said.
It is not always the case that regions that being the underdog is behind nationalism. Basque region is the most affluent region in Spain.
Any other ideas on why breaking countries up into smaller ones is beneficial?

At last I have an answer to the interminable questions as to what I want for Christmas. Hooray

You'll need to read the book, Granny23.

There do seem to be an awful lot of caves where the spider story is said to have happened, G23 Not all the stories can be true, unless he went round with a plastic one and positioned it carefully so as to get a photo-opportunity.

How does Neil Oliver know the story is made up? Did he read it in the 14th Century edition of the Daily Myth?

I am not "stranded" in Scotland either, Newist, though I was born in the south of England, where all my ancestors lived as far back as I can trace (1600 or so) My aunts, uncles, cousins, and cousins' families still live in the south - those of them who still survive. I have just heard that a 94 year-old aunt has died. It is a long way to a family wedding or funeral, but I am in contact with many of my numerous cousins.

But I have been here since I was 16, when my parents were moved up here, like it or not, with my father's job. When we lived in Fife I went to school there and made friends, and was never treated with the hatred that mythology says the Scots feel for the English. My further education was in Edinburgh, and here I made more friends, and met my husband, and was assimilated into his family.

My children are Scottish, but all three have met English partners,and two of them are settled with those partners here, but keep close ties with their English families. The third lives in the south, is close to her husband's family, but keeps her ties with us up here.

There is not an iron curtain across the border. Families have links in both directions (and further afield) Businesses and individuals come and go freely and I am sure will continue to do so whatever the outcome of the referendum.

How dare you Anno ..Bruce and the spider a myth? I was taught it as an historical fact

Presumably in honour of St Andrew's day, one of the Kindle Daily Deals is Neil Oliver's History of Scotland which I already have. It's not heavy reading but is a good resumé of the sometimes mythologised history of our country. Bruce and the spider, anyone?

I am not "stranded" in Scotland, my "heart" is not in England, I was born In England I didn't have much say in that. I choose, so far, to live in Scotland. I am not tribal, my loyalties are to my local community and what is best for it, where ever I happen to live

Happy St Andrew's day to all my compatriots and fellow St Andreans. or a wee dram.

Thank you for your comments Granny23. Happy St Andrew's Day.
You are extremely knowledgeable on the subject of the independence referendum, most people are not so well informed.
For what its worth, I will now keep now council to myself.

Happy St. Andrew's Day all. U Slainte. And to all of you meeting up in Edinburgh, hope you have a good get together.

Wishing you all a Happy St. Andrews Day U < that's my attempt at a whisky glass instead of a

Tegan why be chilled to the bone? An independent Scotland is not going to wage war on England or send raiding parties across the borders This idea that the Scots hate the English is no more correct than saying the English hate the Scots, or the Welsh, or the Irish.
In fact an independent Scotland would possibly improve relationships between the two 'nations' inasmuch as there would exist an element of equality that has been missing in that relationship.

Tegan follow the path that the Scots have used- start a campaign, build up support, demand a referendum.

I see I missed a bit in my reply to you (and Bags) below. It should read if you substitute the phrase 'the right to self-determination' (which is after all what the referendum is about) for the loaded word 'Nationalism' does that change your stance on the issue?

And Thistledoo where do you get the idea that the Yes campaign is being funded with 'your' or 'our' money? The Yes Campaign is an entirely separate entity from both the Scottish Government and the SNP, both constitutionally and financially. It has its own advisory board chaired by Dennis Canavan an ex-labour MP and MSP. I have spent the last 2 years raising funds separately for the SNP and the Yes campaign and can assure you that the funds raised and individual personal donations go to entirely different addresses and bank accounts. The electoral commission would be down on them like a ton of bricks if this were not entirely above board, transparent and meticulously accounted for. However I understand that 'Better together' do not require to raise funds here for their 'No' campaign because it has been handsomely funded by the usual Tory donors, in England and offshore.

While I am being sarky (and honestly this is not aimed at you 'Thistledoo but rather at the honourable gentleman himself) former PM Gordon Brown, still the sitting MP for Kirkcaldy, who was 'too busy' to take on a leading role in the No campaign but has managed to make a few speeches on their behalf, was also too busy to travel down to Westminster to vote on the Labour bill to repeal the 'Bedroom Tax' - one of 8 Scottish Labour MPs and many more from elsewhere in the UK who failed to appear with the result that the bill was narrowly defeated. Too busy to represent the views of their supporters? You will all be aware, I am sure, that Gordon Brown has made exactly 6 appearances in the House of Commons since he ceased to be PM. Presumably he can't see the point when he is no longer 'in charge'. Still drawing his full salary tho'.

OK, rant over. I hope I will have calmed down to reasonableness by morning.

Oops I see Brendawymms got there first- teach me to read through before sounding off

Let's face it though it's not going to happen. There will be votes and talks and talks about votes and votes on talks and squillions spent on it and then another government or Scottish parliament will start all over again. Of course Cameron will let them play at it, take the Scottish MPs out of Westminster and the Tories could be in for life. Labour can't afford to lose its Scottish MPs. Ever counted how many Conservatives represent Scottish constituencies in Westminster??They could hold their meetings in a phone box if such things still existed!

How can people in Yorkshire vote to leave England ?

I too think the voting system needs changing.

Some Scottish people may well hate the English and some English people may well hate the Scots but they're the sort of people that thrive on nastiness and conflict and I hope that most people are not like that.

I always identify myself as British, rather than English.

I, from my very comfortable situation - Scottish born & bred, living in Scotland with my close family all nearby, can still understand the dilemma faced by those whose hearts are in England although they live/work in Scotland. If the shoe were on the other foot and for some reason, I and my family were stranded in an England about to become independent I would be torn in two. Being 'British' has meant that wherever your place of birth or whatever your parentage, no matter where you lived within the UK it was still your Country and you could travel the world on a British Passport. This loyalty to Britain has been steadily dwindling since WW2 as evidenced by a recent piece of research which showed that throughout the UK the majority of people labelled themselves as primarily Welsh, Irish, English or Scottish with British coming a poor second and for many not featuring at all. My new SIL, now committed to living the rest of his life in Scotland, mainly because he believes it to be the best place to bring up his DD, tells me that he will always be a Yorkshire man first and foremost. He will be voting YES but his dream is that given time the northern English counties will vote to come and join us .

Gally It is interesting to hear other points of view. Almost all my friends, and ALL my family are YES voters so I only come across committed Unionists when door stepping or at a Public Meeting or street stall. I keep waiting for a good debate about the issues but am afraid that all they offer are arguments of the 'too wee, too poor, too stupid' to manage our own affairs genre.

Jess I don't 'get' the 'small and vulnerable' scenario. The UK has the 22nd biggest population of all 242 independent countries in the world. If you subtract the 5,000,000+ living in Scotland the rest of UK would only slip down one place in the table, swopping places with Italy. An Indie Scotland would come in at 118th just below Denmark and Finland, more or less equal with Norway and above Ireland, New Zealand, Uruguay, all but one of the former Yugoslavian states, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia and well above Iceland (position 178, population 325,010). So not really that small in the scheme of things. As to the vulnerable? Questions for Jess - Vulnerable to what? Size does not offer any protection from natural disasters, we do have the hateful trident missiles which are supposed to act as a deterrent but as we have no intention of using them and could only do so with the explicit consent of The USA President (and the whole world knows this) what use are they? and exactly whom are they supposed to be deterring? Who are the enemy? Perhaps there is some rival foreign power, laughing like a chookie as we fall further and further into debt while spending 100s of billions (of USA$ by the way) pretending to be still a world power.

Tegan and Bags if you substitute the phrase 'the right to self-determination' (which is after all what the referendum is about) for the loaded word 'Nationalism'. It has been 269 years since there was last a stand up violent fight among us and even that owed as much to Catholic/Protestant hatred as political or nationalistic issues.

RIVERWALK I have writ that large because I believe yours to be the best question we have had on this thread. I do think that a decent system of PR would have made a huge difference in perceptions of democracy in this country. There are loads of us older voters who for their whole lives might as well have pissed into the wind as vote Tory in a safe Labour seat or vice-versa. With PR every vote would count towards the final result and give everyone a say in how we are governed. Under FTP, smaller and new parties and Independents, unless support is concentrated in one or two constituencies cannot get a toehold, except perhaps at a bi-election where every vote does count. The SNP spent years contesting all Scottish seats and attracting around 30% of the vote but it was spread to thin to win many seats and the Mantra at a general election was always 'Vote Labour to keep the Tories out'. Under the PR system adopted for the Scottish Parliament (and no threat of a Tory Government there) the SNP vote has zoomed up until they now have a clear majority in the Scottish Parliament.

PR for UK elections was an idea doomed from the start by virtue of opposition from the two big parties and the weakness of the Lib Dems in dropping it from their list of demands when their support was needed. The big 2 would much rather have a chance of total power some of the time than some influence all of the time. This is the reality of our so-called democracy - that more voters vote for parties who do not get into power than vote for the 'winners' and thousands, nay millions more do not vote at all because they know it will not affect the outcome.

Eloethan I totally agree with your analysis.